tacomatrd
some random chick
- Location
- Frednecksburg, VA
Sent
Sl County Fails Us!!!
- Thread starter cruiseroutfit
- Start date
- Location
- Sandy, Ut
tacomatrd said:
Awesome, make sure to CC me a copy of your letter (wether it be big, small, proper, rude, etc)... I want to take them to the County Mayors office myself... just to back up our casue!
CC here
landuse@cruiseroutfitters.com
All......
Here's the letter I spent all weekend writing and researching. You can use the data but please don't cut and paste my work. Put it in your own words.
Thanks EZ
Mayor Workman,
First some background. My name is Chris Perri, I am on the board of the
Utah 4 Wheel Drive Association. Sorry for the length of this letter, but
obviously someone touched on a nerve. We represent a thousand
recreational four wheel drive enthusiasts around the state. Naturally we are
interested in preserving our sport by keeping old roads open. Kurt and I have been researching the rs2477 road claims in Big Cottonwood Canyon, and find it
ironic that the county does not want to pursue some of the more obvious
claims. It is very disturbing to me whenever the government decides to
throw away OUR roads (and public lands, for that matter).
When you do decide to claim these roads (yes, they ARE roads...keep
reading), that doesn't mean you have to restore them or even maintain them
according to some imaginary road rule book, although many enviro's would
have you believe they would all require paving if you did. The fact is, I
don't want them paved either!! Claiming them now is like an ace up your
sleeve...keep it there for a rainy day or when you decide to do something
later on. To say that once the county claims these roads that they must
provide maintenance I do not believe is correct. Utah County owns the
roads in upper American Fork Canyon and does NOT provide any maintenance. If
fact, user groups pitch in and provide the majority of maintained
responsibilities. There is no reason why all of the maintained road
claims in Big Cottonwood could not also be performed by volunteers. Remember,
rs2477 is really not about roads per se...it is about a right of way. It
could be road, path, pipeline, etc.
Mayor, you seem to think that most of the recently dropped routes are not
nor have ever been jeep or vehicle trails. I have personally hiked or driven
(when it was allowed) up ALL of them. It sounds to me that you nor anyone
on the mayor's staff has put any "boot time" in the canyons. I'm not going
to go through the entire list of road claims that were negligently dropped,
but I want to cover the four biggest ones. I can substantiate all my dates and facts. If you want ources please ask.
1) Mineral Fork, up until 1983, had a road very much passable by four
wheel drives. In fact there was a pair of old wooden bridges in one spot
to help 10 wheeled dump trucks negotiate the tight, steep switchbacks to
access the Wasatch Tunnel and Regulator mines at the top of the canyon. The
current road was built in 1936, but was actually the third generation road
(the second generation road was built prior to 1899). The bottom of the
present road was badly washed out in '83, taking the banks of earth and
the wood bridges along with it. Apparently the Forest Service never bothered
repairing it (big surprise). Due to the washout and lack of maintenance,
the canyon is open today to ATV's only. I find it wholly ludicrous that
the greatest numbers of registered ATV's in the state are found in Salt Lake
County, yet Mineral Fork is the ONLY legal trail in the ENTIRE COUNTY
where one can drive an ATV. I find this both astonishing and disheartening at
the same time. How can the county expect users to "follow the rules" and
"stay off the foothills", etc., when they only provide 2.1 miles of legal trails
to ride on??
2) Cardiff Fork, a.k.a. Mill D North Fork, also referred to as South
Fork Big Cottonwood Creek: This canyon has a long history of mining, since the
1870's. The first route up it was a trail known as the Goodspeed Trail,
built in 1870 to access the Reed and Benson Mine high on the ridge between
Cardiff Fork and Days Fork. The following year a road was built following
the same path. The largest mine in the canyon, the Cardiff Mine, began in
1901. Between 1905 and 1910 the Cardiff Mining and Milling Co. built a
better road to their mine located 3/4 of the way up the canyon. It mainly
paralleled the old road but did away with some of the steep grades so that
large Knox tractors could get to the mine, pulling six to twelve trailers
behind them to bring the ore down the canyon (each trailer had a six ton
capacity, fyi). The Cardiff mine was worked well into the 1960's. From
then until 1992, the canyon was open to recreational four wheel drive
vehicles and motorcycles. In 1991 the Storm Mountain 4x4 Club adopted the
canyon and provided maintenance with the oversight of the Forest Service
before its closure. In 1992 the canyon was closed to all motorized use
with the exception of private land owners. I have both hiked and driven
Cardiff fork on numerous occasions, including last summer (hiking). The roads in
Cardiff are still in excellent condition, despite being closed to the general public for the last ten years.
3) Days Fork: The Eclipse shaft was dug in 1880, and a road built up
Days Fork from the big Cottonwood Canyon Road during that time period to
get equipment to the mine. There is one dugway I remembered while hiking to
the mine two summers ago, and I later found out that it is called the
Hirschman Dugway, named after the mine's superintendent. I still do not know when motorized traffic was suspended on this road, but I can tell you that
although very narrow, it wouldn't take much work to make it jeep worthy.
If fact, I wouldn't hesitate taking mine up it.
4) Silver Fork: The road to the top of Silver Fork was built in either
1870 or 1871. Another road from the Price of Wales mine high on the ridge
connected Silver Fork with Alta via Grizzly Gulch. Both roads remained in
operation until the mid 1930's. In 1913 a better road was built to the
Alta Tunnel (located not far up Silver Fork) which superceded the earlier road.
This later road wrapped around the mountain and joined the canyon highway
where Solitude's lower parking lot is today. Presently the road to the
Alta Tunnel is drivable by any passenger car. Above the mine the old road has
deteriorated a lot, but is certainly passable. It is easy to tell that it
was suitable for vehicles at one time.
As you can see, all of these four canyons were and in some cases still are
passable by vehicles. It is very, very clear that these are slam-dunk
rs2477 rights of way that the county must add to their road system as
primitive recreational roads. Their construction pre-dates the Forest
Service, and they meet the criteria laid out for rs2477 rights of way
according to the Utah Association of Counties. Remember, I don't want
them paved either!! I just want access and the least amount of maintenance
necessary to keep them safe. They are treasures just the way they are.
There are two separate issues here: one is claiming these roads as county
roads. The other is allowing private property owners to access their
land. I am FOR both of these. Private property owners do have certain rights,
and I strongly believe that accessing your own property is one of the most
important ones, even if it is in the forest which we all share. The
Forest Service recently settled the prior issue, at least for the next few years.
It sounds to me that the big problem the county is facing is trying to
prevent another ski lodge, ski area, whatever--from being developed. I am
neither for or against another ski development. We can't have ski areas
everywhere, now can we? However, this is a different issue from claiming a
right of way! Let's face it, this Canyon Ventures company would still
have to jump through 1000 hoops to even begin to get a building permit! If you
don't want the development, then stop the development. Don't step on
regular Joes like myself that want to spent a day in the canyon recreating.
As you can tell, I and my comrades are passionate about this stuff because we love the canyons too, and want to see them protected AND our access preserved for our kids to see. Both are mutually compatible.
Sincerely,
Here's the letter I spent all weekend writing and researching. You can use the data but please don't cut and paste my work. Put it in your own words.
Thanks EZ
Mayor Workman,
First some background. My name is Chris Perri, I am on the board of the
Utah 4 Wheel Drive Association. Sorry for the length of this letter, but
obviously someone touched on a nerve. We represent a thousand
recreational four wheel drive enthusiasts around the state. Naturally we are
interested in preserving our sport by keeping old roads open. Kurt and I have been researching the rs2477 road claims in Big Cottonwood Canyon, and find it
ironic that the county does not want to pursue some of the more obvious
claims. It is very disturbing to me whenever the government decides to
throw away OUR roads (and public lands, for that matter).
When you do decide to claim these roads (yes, they ARE roads...keep
reading), that doesn't mean you have to restore them or even maintain them
according to some imaginary road rule book, although many enviro's would
have you believe they would all require paving if you did. The fact is, I
don't want them paved either!! Claiming them now is like an ace up your
sleeve...keep it there for a rainy day or when you decide to do something
later on. To say that once the county claims these roads that they must
provide maintenance I do not believe is correct. Utah County owns the
roads in upper American Fork Canyon and does NOT provide any maintenance. If
fact, user groups pitch in and provide the majority of maintained
responsibilities. There is no reason why all of the maintained road
claims in Big Cottonwood could not also be performed by volunteers. Remember,
rs2477 is really not about roads per se...it is about a right of way. It
could be road, path, pipeline, etc.
Mayor, you seem to think that most of the recently dropped routes are not
nor have ever been jeep or vehicle trails. I have personally hiked or driven
(when it was allowed) up ALL of them. It sounds to me that you nor anyone
on the mayor's staff has put any "boot time" in the canyons. I'm not going
to go through the entire list of road claims that were negligently dropped,
but I want to cover the four biggest ones. I can substantiate all my dates and facts. If you want ources please ask.
1) Mineral Fork, up until 1983, had a road very much passable by four
wheel drives. In fact there was a pair of old wooden bridges in one spot
to help 10 wheeled dump trucks negotiate the tight, steep switchbacks to
access the Wasatch Tunnel and Regulator mines at the top of the canyon. The
current road was built in 1936, but was actually the third generation road
(the second generation road was built prior to 1899). The bottom of the
present road was badly washed out in '83, taking the banks of earth and
the wood bridges along with it. Apparently the Forest Service never bothered
repairing it (big surprise). Due to the washout and lack of maintenance,
the canyon is open today to ATV's only. I find it wholly ludicrous that
the greatest numbers of registered ATV's in the state are found in Salt Lake
County, yet Mineral Fork is the ONLY legal trail in the ENTIRE COUNTY
where one can drive an ATV. I find this both astonishing and disheartening at
the same time. How can the county expect users to "follow the rules" and
"stay off the foothills", etc., when they only provide 2.1 miles of legal trails
to ride on??
2) Cardiff Fork, a.k.a. Mill D North Fork, also referred to as South
Fork Big Cottonwood Creek: This canyon has a long history of mining, since the
1870's. The first route up it was a trail known as the Goodspeed Trail,
built in 1870 to access the Reed and Benson Mine high on the ridge between
Cardiff Fork and Days Fork. The following year a road was built following
the same path. The largest mine in the canyon, the Cardiff Mine, began in
1901. Between 1905 and 1910 the Cardiff Mining and Milling Co. built a
better road to their mine located 3/4 of the way up the canyon. It mainly
paralleled the old road but did away with some of the steep grades so that
large Knox tractors could get to the mine, pulling six to twelve trailers
behind them to bring the ore down the canyon (each trailer had a six ton
capacity, fyi). The Cardiff mine was worked well into the 1960's. From
then until 1992, the canyon was open to recreational four wheel drive
vehicles and motorcycles. In 1991 the Storm Mountain 4x4 Club adopted the
canyon and provided maintenance with the oversight of the Forest Service
before its closure. In 1992 the canyon was closed to all motorized use
with the exception of private land owners. I have both hiked and driven
Cardiff fork on numerous occasions, including last summer (hiking). The roads in
Cardiff are still in excellent condition, despite being closed to the general public for the last ten years.
3) Days Fork: The Eclipse shaft was dug in 1880, and a road built up
Days Fork from the big Cottonwood Canyon Road during that time period to
get equipment to the mine. There is one dugway I remembered while hiking to
the mine two summers ago, and I later found out that it is called the
Hirschman Dugway, named after the mine's superintendent. I still do not know when motorized traffic was suspended on this road, but I can tell you that
although very narrow, it wouldn't take much work to make it jeep worthy.
If fact, I wouldn't hesitate taking mine up it.
4) Silver Fork: The road to the top of Silver Fork was built in either
1870 or 1871. Another road from the Price of Wales mine high on the ridge
connected Silver Fork with Alta via Grizzly Gulch. Both roads remained in
operation until the mid 1930's. In 1913 a better road was built to the
Alta Tunnel (located not far up Silver Fork) which superceded the earlier road.
This later road wrapped around the mountain and joined the canyon highway
where Solitude's lower parking lot is today. Presently the road to the
Alta Tunnel is drivable by any passenger car. Above the mine the old road has
deteriorated a lot, but is certainly passable. It is easy to tell that it
was suitable for vehicles at one time.
As you can see, all of these four canyons were and in some cases still are
passable by vehicles. It is very, very clear that these are slam-dunk
rs2477 rights of way that the county must add to their road system as
primitive recreational roads. Their construction pre-dates the Forest
Service, and they meet the criteria laid out for rs2477 rights of way
according to the Utah Association of Counties. Remember, I don't want
them paved either!! I just want access and the least amount of maintenance
necessary to keep them safe. They are treasures just the way they are.
There are two separate issues here: one is claiming these roads as county
roads. The other is allowing private property owners to access their
land. I am FOR both of these. Private property owners do have certain rights,
and I strongly believe that accessing your own property is one of the most
important ones, even if it is in the forest which we all share. The
Forest Service recently settled the prior issue, at least for the next few years.
It sounds to me that the big problem the county is facing is trying to
prevent another ski lodge, ski area, whatever--from being developed. I am
neither for or against another ski development. We can't have ski areas
everywhere, now can we? However, this is a different issue from claiming a
right of way! Let's face it, this Canyon Ventures company would still
have to jump through 1000 hoops to even begin to get a building permit! If you
don't want the development, then stop the development. Don't step on
regular Joes like myself that want to spent a day in the canyon recreating.
As you can tell, I and my comrades are passionate about this stuff because we love the canyons too, and want to see them protected AND our access preserved for our kids to see. Both are mutually compatible.
Sincerely,
grinch
inner city redneck
- Location
- Salt Lake City
Well said EZ... Thats got to be one of the best letters to the government I have ever read.
- Location
- Grantsville, Utah
Very well said EZ.
- Location
- Sandy, Ut
More on the subject....
http://www.sltrib.com/2004/Jan/01072004/utah/126779.asp
We need MORE letters, send them to the County Council too!
Email Addresses will be here soon!
http://www.cruiseroutfitters.com/landuse_slcounty.html
http://www.sltrib.com/2004/Jan/01072004/utah/126779.asp
We need MORE letters, send them to the County Council too!
Email Addresses will be here soon!
http://www.cruiseroutfitters.com/landuse_slcounty.html
The county is hearing us. I talked to cruiseroutfit about this already, but I got a phone call regarding the letter I sent in. They were asking for more information. This is a hot topic down there right now, and we all know what wheel gets the grease.
- Location
- Sandy, Ut
rusted said:
Keep squeeking guys... the more we rant the more they will rethink...
Take a minute to write/email ALL of the following:
Salt Lake County Mayors Office:
Nancy Workman
Salt Lake County Mayor
MayorNancy@co.slc.ut.us
Alan Dayton
Deputy Mayor
adayton@co.slc.ut.us
Salt Lake County Council:
Randy Horiuchi - (801) 468-2936 rhoriuchi@co.slc.ut.us
Jim Bradley - (801) 468-2939 jbradley@co.slc.ut.us
Steve Harmsen - (801) 468-2934 sharmsen@co.slc.ut.us
Joe Hatch - (801) 468-2933 jhatch@co.slc.ut.us
Michael Jensen - (801) 468-2932 mhjensen@co.slc.ut.us
David Wilde - (801) 468-2931 dwilde@co.slc.ut.us
Russell Skousen - (801) 468-2937 rskousen@co.slc.ut.us
Cortland G. Ashton - (801) 468-2935 cashton@co.slc.ut.us
Marvin Hendrickson - (801) 468-2938 mhendrickson@co.slc.ut.us
Utah Attorney Generals Office:
uag@utah.gov
Please Carbon Copy all emails to landuse@cruiseroutfitters.com
We will be taking hard copies to the County Mayors Office in an upcoming visit.
crimsonride
huh?
- Location
- Murray
I so far haven't recieved any reply from them. It's probably cause I'm white.
- Location
- Sandy, Ut
What a bunch of lazy politicians..... Next letter won't be so nice...
One day I will be in charge....
Mr. Williams,
I have spoken to Mr. Bradley about your concerns, and he does not intend to bring this issue before the council. The council voted to support the mayor in dropping 8 roads from the list of roads submitted by Salt Lake County to the Utah State Attorney General for the lawsuit. This list was only a guideline for the Attorney General to use, it is ultimately up to the state to decide what roads they submit in the lawsuit. Mr. Bradley is not interested in reconsidering the resolution to support the county's position on these road claims.
Jason Yocom
Council Assistant to Jim Bradley
Salt Lake County Council
2001 South State Street Suite N2200
Salt Lake City, Utah 84190-1010
(801) 468-2216
jyocom@co.slc.ut.us
One day I will be in charge....
Mr. Williams,
I have spoken to Mr. Bradley about your concerns, and he does not intend to bring this issue before the council. The council voted to support the mayor in dropping 8 roads from the list of roads submitted by Salt Lake County to the Utah State Attorney General for the lawsuit. This list was only a guideline for the Attorney General to use, it is ultimately up to the state to decide what roads they submit in the lawsuit. Mr. Bradley is not interested in reconsidering the resolution to support the county's position on these road claims.
Jason Yocom
Council Assistant to Jim Bradley
Salt Lake County Council
2001 South State Street Suite N2200
Salt Lake City, Utah 84190-1010
(801) 468-2216
jyocom@co.slc.ut.us
- Location
- Grantsville, Utah
You got my vote...cruiseroutfit said:What a bunch of lazy politicians..... Next letter won't be so nice...
One day I will be in charge....
[/B]
- Location
- Sandy, Ut
Here's my response:
Mr. Yocum,
I appreciate your timely response but must inform you that this issue WILL NOT end here. I am a member of 6 various OHV/Landuse/Outdoor Recreation groups representing well over 1000 members, I plan on forwarding all of this information to represent to them this pure example of political negligence. In failing to claim these roads Salt Lake County is failing the citizens of the valley, in supporting this poor decision, the council is further showing their lack of real public interest. Please forward these comments onto Mr. Bradley.
I would also like to meet with Mr. Bradley regarding this issue if at all possible. This is a very important issue in our County right now and I would hope that Mr. Bradley would like to hear our arguments on the County's decision. Thank you and let me know what needs to be done to schedule an appointment.
Thank You,
Kurt Williams
Member:
Utah Four Wheel Drive Association
Wasatch Cruiser Club
Blue Ribbon Coalition
Utah Shared Access Alliance
Rocky Mountain Extreme
Mr. Yocum,
I appreciate your timely response but must inform you that this issue WILL NOT end here. I am a member of 6 various OHV/Landuse/Outdoor Recreation groups representing well over 1000 members, I plan on forwarding all of this information to represent to them this pure example of political negligence. In failing to claim these roads Salt Lake County is failing the citizens of the valley, in supporting this poor decision, the council is further showing their lack of real public interest. Please forward these comments onto Mr. Bradley.
I would also like to meet with Mr. Bradley regarding this issue if at all possible. This is a very important issue in our County right now and I would hope that Mr. Bradley would like to hear our arguments on the County's decision. Thank you and let me know what needs to be done to schedule an appointment.
Thank You,
Kurt Williams
Member:
Utah Four Wheel Drive Association
Wasatch Cruiser Club
Blue Ribbon Coalition
Utah Shared Access Alliance
Rocky Mountain Extreme
- Location
- Grantsville, Utah
Fixed it for you...cruiseroutfit said:
James K
NO, I'm always like this
- Location
- Taylorsville, Ut
Kurt for city council
"for the people.......all the people"
"for the people.......all the people"
- Location
- Sandy, Ut
Hickey said:Fixed it for you...
Thanks...
PS ARB on its way...
- Location
- Sandy, Ut
James K said:
Can you say "radical changes"
- Location
- Grantsville, Utah
Staring with a mass firing spree.cruiseroutfit said:Can you say "radical changes"
addifan
Registered User
- Location
- Sandy, Utah
Anymore updates on this?
- Location
- Sandy, Ut
addifan said:
Dud you write a letter?