So does the Buffdale shoot out bug anyone else?

[SAMI]

I see your point it. That would probably made all the difference.

I guess that is the part that bugs me about all this, it could have/should have been easily avoided.

No party really did anything wrong until whoever pulled a gun first...

I disagree. This all could have been avoided if the neighborhood watch guy identified himself, and his objective. He should have done this with the girls, and with the father. It shows the guy has no backbone to not follow through on the mess he started. He should've pulled up to the house, stepped out unarmed, and explained himself..

For the father to take his gun along in search of the men was a mistake; but IMO certainly not the first.

 

[Cherokeester]

Both parties are at fault here, neighborhood watch guy should not have been carrying a gun and shooter should have called the police first. It is crap like this that feeds the fire for anti-gun legislation. I can't believe that two adult men even got into an altercation like this under these circumstances.

 

[CJ Matt]

I disagree, we don't know he "was looking for trouble".
.

I see a difference in carrying a gun to protect yourself and grabbing a gun to go find the people that where following your daughter. With the first you have it and are not looking for or expecting anything, the gun is there for an emergency. The second is going out to find somebody as in this case to confront and having a gun in case it doesn’t go well. With the second one you have time to call the cops and let them deal with it. That is what should have happened. Having a CWP does not make you law enforcement. If he did not already have his gun on him and decided it was a good idea to grab it before going and looking for these guys then his first action should have been to call the police.

 

[Jinx]

I see a difference in carrying a gun to protect yourself and grabbing a gun to go find the people that where following your daughter. With the first you have it and are not looking for or expecting anything, the gun is there for an emergency. The second is going out to find somebody as in this case to confront and having a gun in case it doesn’t go well. With the second one you have time to call the cops and let them deal with it. That is what should have happened. Having a CWP does not make you law enforcement. If he did not already have his gun on him and decided it was a good idea to grab it before going and looking for these guys then his first action should have been to call the police.

I think I see your point, but to me it is a little contradictory, it like saying I am going to have a fire extinguisher with me when I don't need it but the second there MIGHT be a fire I will leave it home and call the fire dept who is at least 10 min away...

Any one who has taken a gun camping, wheelin, etc, just in case is using the same logic as this guy "probably" did when he said just in case...

 

[Jinx]

For the father to take his gun along in search of the men was a mistake; but IMO certainly not the first.

I agree that it was not the first mistake made in the situation.

but what if these guys weren't the Neighborhood Watch and some sort of predator, this story would completely different.

Going to check out a potential problem at 11pm at night, you would be packing too. or you are stupid...

 

[Jinx]

Both parties are at fault here, neighborhood watch guy should not have been carrying a gun and shooter should have called the police first. .

completely true but for some reason I can understand the actions of the dad over the actions of the NWG.

I can't believe that two adult men even got into an altercation like this under these circumstances.

Deffinitely something to be learner from this...

 

[rholbrook]

Its all BS that it ended like this. I have a teenage daughter and a CWP. I would never leave the house looking for the guy or guys that were hastling my daughter, I would call the cops and then go look and call them if I found them. What everyone is failing to mention is the guy that got shot was an EX-military guy and he was probably carrying because I know a lot of ex-military carry. A friend of mine (ex-military) has a small arsenal in every car. He also stated that he would carry nothing smaller than a 40 so he could make sure the guy never got back up.

Anyway, there is not justification in this incidence UNLESS the guy on watch came onto the shooter's property. If the guy on watch touched his daughter, there isn't a jury around that would save him and then the shooter was justified but you never take the enforcement of the law into your own hands. A good CWP instructor should convey that but I guess in the heat of the moment, no one thinks very clear.

 

[SAMI]

^^ I agree with that.

The father made some bad decisions, after the neighborhood watch made bad decisions which was what led to putting the father ina position to make the bad decisions that he made.. And now people are hurt.

 

[CJ Matt]

Jinx,
You and I are definitely in a disagreement here. I look at it simple, use you gun if your life or someone else’s is in immediate danger. Do not go looking for someone because then you are knowingly putting yourself in what could be a bad situation that you do not need to be in. Call the cops and let them handle it. The purpose of having CWP is to protect yourself when an unforeseen threat has arisen and you have no other option. It is not for the purpose of knowingly putting yourself in a bad situation or trying to be a cop. The key to me is he left his house with a gun to go looking for people when there was other options.

 

[Jinx]

Jinx,
You and I are definitely in a disagreement here. I look at it simple, use you gun if your life or someone else’s is in immediate danger. Do not go looking for someone because then you are knowingly putting yourself in what could be a bad situation that you do not need to be in. Call the cops and let them handle it. The purpose of having CWP is to protect yourself when an unforeseen threat has arisen and you have no other option. It is not for the purpose of knowingly putting yourself in a bad situation or trying to be a cop. The key to me is he left his house with a gun to go looking for people when there was other options.

I can respect your position...

 

[pELYgroso]

The dad shouldn't have gone to look for them past the end of his driveway. period. But what a couple of idiotic freaking morons for neighborhood watch dudes. Unfortunately the law will judge the dad to be at fault but it all could have been avoided if those guys hadn't done such a sucky job at watching the neighborhood, leading the dad into making a bad decision.

 

[Hickey]

We know the girls bumped into the Neighborhood Watch guy twice before Dad got involved. Did Dad actually go looking for the bad guys or was he just escorting the other girls home, and then bumped into the Watch guy?

No matter what, they both are at fault. Dad (actually the girls) should have called the cops. Neighborhood watch guy should have identified himself and his mission on EACH encounter.

When I was 18 I had a bad experience with some over-eager Neighborhood Watch people. Both men were leaders in my Ward and were driving around the neighborhood without any lights on. My encounter would also have been avoided if they would have identified themselves. Neighborhood Watch volunteers are supposed to observe and report to authorities. They are not to interfere.

 

[rollover]

The law is simple. If your in fear of your life you have a right to protect it.

Someone brakes in your house. You can defend your life. However once they exit the house you by law cant shoot the guy at your door step. Once they exited the home you are no longer threatened and it now it becomes a new case if you shoot them. Your at fault now you went after them with intent to harm. Your life was no longer in danger the threat had left. Ever heard an officer tell ya to drag the body back inside if it falls out the door.

Just a thought.

 

[TRNDRVR]

Being a father of 2 girls, (and admitting I haven't heard clearly both sides of the story) I'm on the father's side.

 

[benjy]

I just hope this guy can afford some good representation :-\ It will be interesting to see what happens with this.

 

[redneckbronco]

I havent read the story but if my daughter came home saying some guys in a suv were following them, Id be a little disturbed. I dont own a gun but would still be out checking in to it, AFTER calling the cops. Were from California and guys in suvs following young girls is a huge red flag, unless its a black burban thats all blacked out with government plates on it, then you wanna know what the girls been doing that the secret service is following her for. But definately feel the father is in the rite, and if other guy was neighborhood watch why with a gun, and not a phone to call the cops?

 

[sandsucker]

What nobody has said yet, is that the girls were walking in the neighborhood (that has been having thefts/vandalism) when confronted by N Watch, they got into a car that matched the description of the car being looked for. They get followed, and cry to dad to save them. It seems to me like some girls should be in prison.

My thought on the duel: If the N Watch thought his life in danger enough to pull his gun, why didn't he use it? If a gun comes out it should be fired! The dad shouldn't have had time to react and pull his gun. A gun is not a scare tactic, and should not be used as one.
It will be interesting to see what REALLY happened. KSL is great at making a story what they want. The full details would be nice to have.

 

[SAMI]

Right, lock up the girls on pure suspicion... Nice.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Right, lock up the girls on pure suspicion... Nice.

The same suspicion being cast over the intentions of both the shooters too

We don't know the whole story, might be months before we do. What we do know is both men are definitely guilty of a lapse in judgment on some account. The father absolutely should have called the police. I'm not a father, might be one day but in the meantime I'll just have to speculate. If my daughter walked into the house and told me she had been followed, harassed or stalked by several grown men... the last thing I would do would be to put her into the car and go looking for these same men. He knowingly took a gun, that by law could only be used once the threat of lethal force was presented against himself... and yet he places his daughter back into a situation we can only presume he guessed could be lethal to some degree? It would be one thing if he left his daughter at home and went for a quick 'look around' armed with his cell-phone. But to leave with his gun and his daughter to confront what turned out to be his neighbors? How can you call that a sane move. Would you drag your kids into a burning building to have them help you identify who needs to be saved? He should have gone for a quick drive. Stopped and noted the other vehicle and occupants, called the police and let them confront the watchers. We had a prowler outside of our house several weeks ago, 3am, dog barks, wife sees someone jumping our fence. Would I take her and my gun out into the yard to investigate? Hell no!

 

[TRNDRVR]

I'm not a father......

Therefore you have no clue as to what "a father's" emotions are when it comes to protecting their kids.

I've had 3 daughters and now only have 2. I would do anything to protect the ones I have left.

I'm still on the father's side.