St. George BLM Travel Management Plan

[Don B]

I think the St George office is more likely to listen. However, we have already lost access to the mail drop. The Cherry Stem that was down to the mail drop has been lost. It would have cost them too much to build the fence in the correct location. We will see how it goes.Also Don I am more than willing to sit in on the meeting and bring the SAR laptop with the routes we use all the time in searches. I feel the Cart was put before the horse on the RMP and the Land Use bill. THanks Casey.

What!!!
I hadn't heard that about the mail drop cherry stem. I'm going to have to run over and check that out. I was assured that the fence project was not going to affect that. The Mail Drop route was specifically left open in the wilderness designation.

 

[Samuraiman]

This is exactly what I pointed out about the bold moves by the BLM Management by closure, sure they are not the enemy. Yet at any time they move boundries and close roads at will. No one at there office seems to be aware of who made the decision's to move boundries etc.... Anyway we have the county commission working on it. Hopefully they will work out a few more details.

 

[Don B]

I took a field trip over to the mail drop. The road is still there and has fence posts running down both side of it. Ugly as sin...but it looks to be in line with the wilderness designation and the EA the BLM did on the fence project. It was hard to tell where they are ending the road, but probably about a quarter mile from the mail drop which is something the BLM has said they intended all along.

 

[1\4elliptic toy]

Wow! how did I miss this? I will be at every meeting down here (STG) I have several trails that need added to this.

 

[Panos]

i will be there will out a doubt, this is huge !

 

[BonZuki]

Saint George Meeting!

There were about 150 that attended the Saint George Meeting tonight a pretty good turnout unfortunately there were some tree huggers there too so please do what you can to attend the other meetings or mail or e-mail your comments and input into the BLM office we have some great trails including Ash Creek that can be saved or put on the map for public use but not without your Help Thanks Steve!

 

[Don B]

Here are some pointers for the scoping meeting coming up in Salt Lake put together from what we saw at the first meeting in St. George.

Besides the usual display of maps and flyers that are typical at these meetings, the BLM had something that I thought worked quite well. They had large scale maps of the area printed out on paper that showed the routes they have on their inventory. You can write on these maps and add routes or make comments. The group I was with added a map number and date to the map and then referenced their written comments to this map.

The St. George BLM Field Office has two large open OHV areas. They were shown on some maps on the walls but were not shown on the paper maps used for commenting. Find Dave Keil with the BLM and have him show the outline of these open areas on the comment map.

Some items of note that you may want to look at and comment on.

1. Sand Mountain Open OHV area. This is the large area near Sand Hollow that has most of the good 4x4 trails around St George. The BLM will probably not try to change the open designation, but they are including the trails in the inventory so it would be in our interest to make sure that all of the trails we want are included in the inventory so we don’t run into problems in the future if the designation is ever changed to designated routes only.
2. Gunlock Open OHV area. This is a large, little known open area west of Gunlock and Veyo. From my understanding, some of this area at least will no longer be designated open as it is not really suitable for cross country travel. We want to make sure all existing routes in this area are included in the inventory as well as some newer trails including the one known as the “Squeeze”.
3. Ash Creek. This is shown on the BLM map as a dirt road. Please mark this trail on the map and comment on it. We need this route for a buggy trail.
4. Smith’s Mesa. There is a trail dropping down the east side into a canyon that was not on the map. Dave Keil can show you where it should be.
5. If you have trail guide books or personal knowledge of trails in the area, look over the map and see if you can find any trails that are missing. If there’s something you don’t see, draw it in on the map and add it to your written comment.

 

[Samuraiman]

Meeting

I attending the meeting with the BLM and seems like a bunch of smoke. Never the less they were very involved in helping people put in comments and submission's. I was asked to attend as a member of Search and Rescue. We offers our knowledge and GPS tracks to them, we also committed to take them on trails and routes that are not mapped and plotted. Tons of tracks are not on the maps. As a administrative concern, in the RMP and the land use bill it does state in the matter of emergency situation's any and all routes deemed accesible in an emergency can be used. In SAR anytime we have the occasion of using a road to better carry out our job, regardless of where it is we use it. Occasionally we use motorbikes on biking trails. An interesting fact is that no mountain bike trails on Little Creek mountain have been approved or are legal to ride. NONE! The areas with OHV routes are plentiful, yet many will be closed.

A few key trails to mention
1. The Upper and Lower LaVerkin twist trail starting at La verkin Shooting range and ending at Toquerville falls. This is a loop trail. You can ride back to the shooting range

2. Peters leap and Ash Creek can be a loop trail also.

3.Caanan Mountain cherry stem, needs to be recognized if nothing else as and adminstrative route. Notice on the maps at the scoping meeting it states JEEP TRAIL to the sawmill spring. Red Mountain trail also needs to be utilized as an adminstrative cherry stem.

4. Making the area around Warner Valley an Open OHV area and extending it to the state line to the South. Also keep the management of those open areas including Hurricane Sand Dunes under the Administration of the BLM and not State Parks. Complete and administer staging areas and primitive camp sites in the Open OHV area in Warner Valley.

5.Protect the dinosaur tracks and fort pierce Riparian areas, from cattle, OHV and mtn bikes etc.. Protect archealogical sites on little creek mtn from further abuse.

6. Consider existing routes in the NCA in the West Desert. Also on the West Desert is and area that could be a great area for Designated routes only to protect the area more and have several routes made loop trails.

7. A good point to the RMP is the enforcement. They need to understand that enforcement of closures will be an administrative nightmare. There is no need to take several self managed areas and close them. Little to no abuse happens in areas' that have responsible OHV use. Most damage occurs in close proximity to town, this is where the parents turn uneducated kids loose on motorized baby sitters.

8. Please submit any GPS tracks or trail heads and a explanation of where it starts and ends etc.. Offer to take the BLM out on your favorite trail.

9. Get your freinds family etc to comment. This is very important and will affect the RMP outcome.

10. The Mail drop route needs to be extended to the proper location and the fence needs to be built in the location specified in the land use bill.

11. All routes identified as open need to be included and specified in the High Desert OHV trail system. Redundant and spur trails with little or no significance need to be remediated and restored, with help from local clubs and groups. This including biking hiking equestrian OHV and jeep trails.

12. A very comprehensive map and trail signage campaign needs to be kicked off also with the help from clubs.

I am not sure what if any trails will be saved, I have my doubts, but at least we try.

 

[Don B]

Thanks Casey, great info.

The way I see it is that we have suffered a lot of losses and they all go back to something that we didn't do 10, 12 or even 30 years ago. We can't go back and do things different, but we can get involved in these planning proccess now and maybe prevent some future losses.

 

[jackjoh]

Very dissapointing turn out I don't think 20 people were there. I think Sami, a guy and his wife from utah 4x4, Ned Day a rouckhound, Mike Swenson USA-ALL, and myself. More to follow.

 

[mbryson]

Very dissapointing turn out I don't think 20 people were there. I think Sami, a guy and his wife from utah 4x4, Ned Day a rouckhound, Mike Swenson USA-ALL, and myself. More to follow.

Where's the ashamed smiley? I knew there was something else tonight, just couldn't figure out what it was.

 

[anderson750]

Very dissapointing turn out I don't think 20 people were there. I think Sami, a guy and his wife from utah 4x4, Ned Day a rouckhound, Mike Swenson USA-ALL, and myself. More to follow.

Thanks for taking the time to go tonight.

 

[SAMI]

Was Swensen there? He left 10 minutes after introducing himself to the BLM staff.

The turnout was pretty sorry, but I assume everyone was home marking their maps and compiling gps waypoints to send the BLM... Right guys?

Dave Kiel was definately the man to talk to, I asked him atleast 102 questions.. All the comments on here were great, I added most of them to my own points and comments.

-Jason

 

[anderson750]

Was Swensen there? He left 10 minutes after introducing himself to the BLM staff.

Interesting..........what time was that?

 

[Samuraiman]

Was Swensen there? He left 10 minutes after introducing himself to the BLM staff.

The turnout was pretty sorry, but I assume everyone was home marking their maps and compiling gps waypoints to send the BLM... Right guys?

Dave Kiel was definately the man to talk to, I asked him atleast 102 questions.. All the comments on here were great, I added most of them to my own points and comments.

-Jason

Ten minutes Really. Who was timing Swensen. Who cares to begin with. Time at a three ring circus in my opinion. Time would be better spent writing comments and actually doing a comprehensive and accurate comment and submission. A comment made by the BLM staffer, (we thought about putting the recorded sound of a paper shredder in the comment boxes when you turned in your comment sheet.) HA HA sarcasm,,,, that's about right. They wonder why they have such a terrible public relations. So maybe all a big waste of time. Talk to the post in the front yard, it would listen closer.

I have spent countless hours compiling maps and routes as well as two submission forms. This started long before this RMP. This started years ago as the Washington County Land Use bill was first introduced. Dave Kiel is a good guy and will go to bat. However there are all the scientist's and management in closed door meetings during final crunch time and of course SUWA on the end of the table with the willow stick. Just salivating for a chance to whip the BLM on the hand if they don't get their way.

It's time for all the keyboard punching hankerchief wearing bandit's to step out from behind the keyboard. Spend some time printing BLM submission forms and getting them to freinds family and co workers. Get comments submitted and quit baby sitting the ORG'S. You are all grown men, lets act like it. Swallow your pride and keep things positive on the boards. This is into reference to the other post about CMSMR and comments and personal attacks in there. If you have a problem, call the person on the phone, be engaged and work through problems and concerns with them. Not on some forum that has countless SUWA members watching like hawks. Lets get it done!

 

[anderson750]

Ten minutes Really. Who was timing Swensen. Who cares to begin with. Time at a three ring circus in my opinion. Time would be better spent writing comments and actually doing a comprehensive and accurate comment and submission. A comment made by the BLM staffer, (we thought about putting the recorded sound of a paper shredder in the comment boxes when you turned in your comment sheet.) HA HA sarcasm,,,, that's about right. They wonder why they have such a terrible public relations. So maybe all a big waste of time. Talk to the post in the front yard, it would listen closer.

I have spent countless hours compiling maps and routes as well as two submission forms. This started long before this RMP. This started years ago as the Washington County Land Use bill was first introduced. Dave Kiel is a good guy and will go to bat. However there are all the scientist's and management in closed door meetings during final crunch time and of course SUWA on the end of the table with the willow stick. Just salivating for a chance to whip the BLM on the hand if they don't get their way.

It's time for all the keyboard punching hankerchief wearing bandit's to step out from behind the keyboard. Spend some time printing BLM submission forms and getting them to freinds family and co workers. Get comments submitted and quit baby sitting the ORG'S. You are all grown men, lets act like it. Swallow your pride and keep things positive on the boards. This is into reference to the other post about CMSMR and comments and personal attacks in there. If you have a problem, call the person on the phone, be engaged and work through problems and concerns with them. Not on some forum that has countless SUWA members watching like hawks. Lets get it done!

^^^ Great post. I for one am done arguing.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Agreed that these scoping meetings are a minor part of the big picture.

For those of us not familiar with the area yet very interested in commenting, can we get a set of 'talking points' coaching us on the issues we need to address. As we all know 'bulk' letters even when signed by different names, count just as if they were one. However if we can come up with a list of suggested talking points ie trails to ask for inclusion, open areas, permit details, etc we can all take those notes and tailor them into a personalized meaningful comment entry.

Comments do work, read through the recent RMP passing's and you'll note that the BLM attributed some of their favorable decisions to the vast amount of public input. Game on!

 

[scoutabout]

You are all grown men, lets act like it. Swallow your pride and keep things positive on the boards.

This "keep it quiet" attitude is what prevents any institutional change from happening. It doesn't help our community to maintain the status quo of poor performance and zero accountability.

If you have a problem, call the person on the phone, be engaged and work through problems and concerns with them.

Me personally (and others) have taken this approach. Only to have our concerns given lip service and then brushed off. Cycle repeat. If it's not talked about openly, it won't change. But that's what some people want: no change to the status quo.

The same guys you're calling out are the same ones who are already involved, submitting comments, getting others to submit comments. Don't believe the false statements that some people are only complaining. Some people are complaining AND doing.

I guess it's just a Utah thing? Avoid confrontation and maintain the status quo at all costs? Not a good way to improve things in my opinion.

And Anderson, anytime you want to discuss issues instead of attacking people, bring it on.

 

[Samuraiman]

This "keep it quiet" attitude is what prevents any institutional change from happening. It doesn't help our community to maintain the status quo of poor performance and zero accountability.



Me personally (and others) have taken this approach. Only to have our concerns given lip service and then brushed off. Cycle repeat. If it's not talked about openly, it won't change. But that's what some people want: no change to the status quo.

The same guys you're calling out are the same ones who are already involved, submitting comments, getting others to submit comments. Don't believe the false statements that some people are only complaining. Some people are complaining AND doing.

I guess it's just a Utah thing? Avoid confrontation and maintain the status quo at all costs? Not a good way to improve things in my opinion.

And Anderson, anytime you want to discuss issues instead of attacking people, bring it on.

You can fly off the handle as you usually do and not have any tack, you have to decide that. However most over bearing over confident comments and personal attacks are usually brushed off as someone being a jackass. However as I suggested an open Dialouge is fine, but put some salt with your pepper (keep it quiet) I never did say clam it up and shut your mouth, though at times it has been in the back of my mind. I will be the first one to stand up and let you know your out of line. ( A Utah thing? you must have forgotton the Sage brush rebellion! When it's time to kick ass, that is usually the best time to carry it out. At no time did I suggest that people were doing nothing. I was also not pointing fingers or suggesting anyone was out of line until now. (And Anderson, anytime you want to discuss issues instead of attacking people, bring it on.) Give me a break, You want to arm wrestle Anderson? SARCASM

Simply hitting on some pointers. Let others decide their involvement and the committment they show, not decide that for them. Everyone knows the time and dedication they commit, it's not a contest. Nor will anything happen over night, this is a decade long process.

 

[anderson750]

I have said it many times and I will repeat it again. There are many different ways to get to the end result of protecting our access that we all want. The most important thing is to have all those people working to that end and not driving people away from the process because others are sick of listening to people bickering back and forth about it.

I will freely admit that I have allowed myself to get sucked into the bickering, but from this point forward I am only going to focus on what I can do as an enthusiast and member of the BOD for USA-All to keep as many trials open in St. George as possible. I was there for the Crawlfest this past year and I think that St. George is as much fun or more fun as Moab and look forward to many more trips down there.

Lets get back on track here.

By Monday we should have up and running a way for people to submit their trail data to USA-All so the we can compile the data into one file with as much information as possible. This data can be used by groups and organizations to file with their comments.