St. George BLM Travel Management Plan

[SAMI]

Simply hitting on some pointers. Let others decide their involvement and the commitment they show, not decide that for them. Everyone knows the time and dedication they commit, it's not a contest. Nor will anything happen over night, this is a decade long process.

I understand what you're saying. The reason I brought up Swensen was that in my eyes, he should be the first one there and the last one out the door. Marking the map up to the point that the paper is wearing thin and the ink is running out. Did he come up and shake my hand and comment on my U4 shirt? No, I'm OK with that.. Would that have made him look better in my eyes? Perhaps.. It was more his demeanor in introducing himself in a 'holier than thou' - on the verge of condescending - "I am the head of Utah's largest OHV network and organization. Hi, I'm Mike Swensen with USA-ALL".. I bit my lip to not bust up laughing. Made me think of Troy McLure from the Simpsons.. "Hi, I'm Mike Swensen; you may remember me from such events as the Sage Brush Rebellion, or the Take Back Utah rally".. Point is, this guy is paid to be the ass kicker. Pro-OHV enthusiasts pay him to be kick-ass, and I just didn't see him be kick-ass.. The markers weren't empty when he left....

Don't get me wrong, I don't want his job. I just noticed that he was out of there pretty fast, and didn't really talk much land-use or nitty gritty details. When you are in a position like that, people will watch you.. That's just how it is. That's why Steve has such a cult following.

Samuraiman, thank you for your adding your comments/concerns for the benefit of people like me who have little knowledge of the particular area. I've wheeled down there 3-4 times, so my input is certainly limited. I used all of your key points and notes as talking points with Dave and Keil. It's obvious that you have a clear understanding of the area from decades of using the lands down there.

I do have a question for you. I asked Dave about the road up to Sawmill Spring ever being an administrative road. He said no way. I brought up S&R, and he said that S&R trumps all to save life and limb, as you know. My question is then - why would you like to see the road accessed as an administrative cherry stem? My only guess would be for familiarizing the S&R team with the area? But, I'm not sure. I'm curious your take on it after talking with Dave. It peaked my interest.

 

[anderson750]

I understand what you're saying. The reason I brought up Swensen was that in my eyes, he should be the first one there and the last one out the door. Marking the map up to the point that the paper is wearing thin and the ink is running out. Did he come up and shake my hand and comment on my U4 shirt? No, I'm OK with that.. Would that have made him look better in my eyes? Perhaps.. It was more his demeanor in introducing himself in a 'holier than thou' - on the verge of condescending - "I am the head of Utah's largest OHV network and organization. Hi, I'm Mike Swensen with USA-ALL".. I bit my lip to not bust up laughing. Made me think of Troy McLure from the Simpsons.. "Hi, I'm Mike Swensen; you may remember me from such events as the Sage Brush Rebellion, or the Take Back Utah rally".. Point is, this guy is paid to be the ass kicker. Pro-OHV enthusiasts pay him to be kick-ass, and I just didn't see him be kick-ass.. The markers weren't empty when he left....

Don't get me wrong, I don't want his job. I just noticed that he was out of there pretty fast, and didn't really talk much land-use or nitty gritty details. When you are in a position like that, people will watch you.. That's just how it is. That's why Steve has such a cult following.

After reading your post last night, I emailed Mike and he called me this morning. Mike stated to me that he showed up at the meeting around 6:15 and stayed until about 6:50 since he had to be to a Take Back Utah meeting at around 7:00 in Holliday. While there he talked to several people that he knew. He did mention "seeing a guy in a U4 shirt".

I disagree with your statement that Mike should have been marking up the map until the paper was thin and the ink was running out. Mike freely admitted to me that he does not have intimate knowledge of the trails in St. George. So how is he going to mark up the map. That needs to come from the users who know the area.

I agree with Sauraimain when he says that the real work comes outside of these meetings. These public meetings are a formality in the process and the real work happens after comments have been submitted. What we need to focus on is getting people to submit comments and data.

I know Kurt has organized some epic letter writing campaigns in the past. I hope to see others emulate Kurts actions and do the same. This is an opportune time to retain thousands of miles of trails in Southern Utah.

 

[Samuraiman]

(My question is then - why would you like to see the road accessed as an administrative cherry stem?)
This only as a way to show the BLM recognizes the route. This to show on the maps for future fire fighters, SAR and administration officials to utilize during emergencies. However it may not be used for trainings or for familarization as it has been in the past, when it was a WSA. Either way the county Sheriff will decide who uses that road for an emergency. Any federal agent stopping the SAR efforts on any road in Washington County, may find themself in a volatile situation.

What I would like to see is a sheet with key points and trails that may be affected attached to a comment sheet. This being distributed either by hand, email and returned to the BLM by the deadline. I am working on routes and key points with USA ALL. I would like suggestions on what to include from U4 BRC etc... If anyone has question's concerns comments or would like to offer help, that would be great. If you have feelings or thoughts about USA ALL, call the office, get you question's and concerns answered. At least you can decide to take it or leave it. You don't have to support them finacially if that is your concern, but work together regardless of issues, or nothing will happen. A combined effort would be the key to success. Thanks Casey

 

[Samuraiman]

Made me think of Troy McLure from the Simpsons.. "Hi, I'm Mike Swensen; you may remember me from such events as the Sage Brush Rebellion, or the Take Back Utah rally

Thats funny Stuff

 

[jackjoh]

This is my take on the meeting. Where was everyone? I know it was about St. George but we have all been there and it is in Utah and the battle needs to be fought where ever it is. I want to thank personally everyone that was there and sorry I did not get to meet with everyone.
Dave Kiel seemed to be the best informed so I spent my time marking maps, looking and spotting google earth with Kyle Volese and talking to Jimmy Tyree the Field Office Manager. I used Don Blacks memo as a guideline and a few trails that I knew or thought I knew about. The reason I say that is because I thought that back in 1973 or 76 (it could have been 84) I went across SITLA land to Sand Mountain but could not find a trail on there computer. I am still looking at my old maps.
Mike Swensen excused himself just before 7pm to go to another meeting and stated that he thought this was just to satisfy the BLM's legal requirements and that paper and e-mail input would carry more weight.
I too wish USA-ALL would do more but knowing the history of the last two years I am not sure that it is possible. I forgot to ask if anything was left of the money U4 gave them to help with Canaan Mtn.
Thanks again to all those that are helping keep our Public lands Public.

 

[anderson750]

I too wish USA-ALL would do more

I am.


Thank you for being there Jack.

 

[scoutabout]

When I see people lighting money on fire, I point out that it's wrong. Call it bickering, jackassery, or whatever you guys want. Our motorized access is constantly in crisis. And we constantly see encouragement to forego our infrastructure concerns and "work together" in response to crisis. We never address our infrastructure problems that should be resolved so that we CAN effectively respond to crisis. A vicous cycle of collusion.

Kurt W mentioned it earlier in this thread, is there a way to get a crib sheet of routes, issues, concerns, etc so that as many individuals as possible can get educated on the 10,000 ft view of the issues and submit substantive comments? It's a great idea that USA-ALL is collecting and "doubly" submitting data to make a paper-trail, but having these comments from as many users as possible makes a difference.

Something like the samples attached? I attached the one from Moab's RMP and from Kanab's RMP, Kurt W I think has the others and some of them are worth posting as guides as well.

The BLM noted that some major changes were the direct result of comments during the final implementation of the last six RMP's. This despite one access advocacy group telling users that comments weren't important at that stage in the process.

If you have feelings or thoughts about USA ALL, call the office, get you question's and concerns answered.

Almost as funny as SAMI's "Troy McClure" comment.

 

[Don B]

Agreed that we need to get some talking points put together and push for as many comments as we can get in before the end of the scoping period.

We need to keep in mind that besides having all the data in on the trails, we also need to show the BLM why we want them open. We need to show the purpose for the trails and that there is public support for motorized trails.

Case in point; Ash Creek was on the map but shown as a dirt road. In assessing the roads, some BLM employee could look at it and decide that it is just an abandoned and washed out old road and they may as well close it. We have to show them we want it left open as an unmaintained challenge type trail as we use it for a buggy trail.

 

[jackjoh]

Case in point; Ash Creek was on the map but shown as a dirt road. In assessing the roads, some BLM employee could look at it and decide that it is just an abandoned and washed out old road and they may as well close it. We have to show them we want it left open as an unmaintained challenge type trail as we use it for a buggy trail.
Part of my talk with Jimmy Tyree was about this very subject. I pointed out that old roads that are not maintained present a challenge to four wheelers and should remain open. Also multiple trails or off shoots are sometimes so called Easy and Hard trails that present a challenge to drivers of varying degrees of competence and vehicle ability.
We also had a long discussion about the different designations of roads. They use Road=Any vehicle can use, Primitive=4x4 or hi clearance, and Non-motorized which seem self explanatory. Non-motorized is hiking, horse, and bicycle. Bicycles are only excluded from wilderness because of the non-mechanical designation. This brings me to the conclusion that the bicycle community has made a deal so they can use all the WSA, wilderness like, scenic enhancement, etc. to ban four wheeling but allow bicycles. Can someone help me here, an I not understanding something?

 

[Samuraiman]

When I see people lighting money on fire, I point out that it's wrong. Call it bickering, jackassery, or whatever you guys want. Our motorized access is constantly in crisis. And we constantly see encouragement to forego our infrastructure concerns and "work together" in response to crisis. We never address our infrastructure problems that should be resolved so that we CAN effectively respond to crisis. A vicous cycle of collusion.

Kurt W mentioned it earlier in this thread, is there a way to get a crib sheet of routes, issues, concerns, etc so that as many individuals as possible can get educated on the 10,000 ft view of the issues and submit substantive comments? It's a great idea that USA-ALL is collecting and "doubly" submitting data to make a paper-trail, but having these comments from as many users as possible makes a difference.

Something like the samples attached? I attached the one from Moab's RMP and from Kanab's RMP, Kurt W I think has the others and some of them are worth posting as guides as well.

The BLM noted that some major changes were the direct result of comments during the final implementation of the last six RMP's. This despite one access advocacy group telling users that comments weren't important at that stage in the process.


Almost as funny as SAMI's "Troy McClure" comment.

If we seem to have such infastructure problems may I suggest to you, with such ingenuity you can feel free to start yet another ORG and run it the way you see fit. There is always room for another advocacy group. I like the attachments that I have seen on the last serveral RMP'S. They seem to give good guidlines for comments I know that all to many times the comments submitted have little or no information, other than keep the trails open. No data no specifics. I think several well placed comments with a comprehensive layout would do wonders. I will see what I can get submitted as far as tracks and trails. Thanks for everyone's passion and advice. Also Jack, the BLM does not like to leave unmaintained challenging trails open for motorized use, I think they see them as a liability. Notice the more challengin trails are open for the mtn bike crowd, with no thought of the liability. I think that most places in WSA should be exempt from mechanized if closed to motorized.

 

[scoutabout]

If we seem to have such infastructure problems may I suggest to you, with such ingenuity you can feel free to start yet another ORG and run it the way you see fit.

Do you think our access is properly defended with no room for improvement? I tried to start a new org out of the ashes of an old one. I suspect you have zero interest in hearing the true story behind how that turned out. I won't waste my time.

I like the attachments that I have seen on the last serveral RMP'S. They seem to give good guidlines for comments...

I posted these as guidelines for something that has worked. If we can get some local information, we can assemble that information into a similar document that can be useful during this process. You are correct that general comments of "keep the trails open" and "we like motorized recreation" are useless and as bad as doing nothing at all. That's why we need the local intel. Routes, issues, areas, needs, etc. Let's hear it. Don't be sad that your secret trails weren't designated if you won't share the route data. Put the info out there, and I will be glad to help organize it and put it in a presentable format, if it isn't already.

But I'm sure USA-ALL is already on top of it.

 

[Samuraiman]

Just some more thought to add to compiling data and comments. Consideration for routes missed in the inventory . Suggest provision's for a streamline process to consider routes that could be opened or closed after the final RMP.

Interesting fact about the very first meeting in St George. The only motorized route in Washington County, the fort pierce trail was not included in the maps the BLM had put out for public comment. It took only two minutes from a participant to point out the mistake. This is the type of accuracy we will be dealing with during the process. They had it fixed by the next meeting.

Request a copy of the Draft map after they have completed the inventory process. This way we can have a brain storm group meeting of users could check for missed routes and other problems. Have a meeting with our County Commissioners, senator's etc. Be sure the process is being completed in the manner it was intended. A conversation with Bob B who was employed in the Kanab office. He stated in conversation that Caanan Mtn was not included in the original inventory way back when. Why? He didn't think it should be there. Scary that one person's personal decision years ago has such lasting imprint on the process. Hopefully things have changed and now one person call add or delete routes at will.

Any other thoughts we can include in a suggestion summary for comments? We have till July 19th for public input. COMPILE COMPILE COMPILE EEEKKKK

 

[scoutabout]

Are we ever going to get some info to pass around so people can submit comments? Route data, local issues, areas in danger?

 

[Don B]

Are we ever going to get some info to pass around so people can submit comments? Route data, local issues, areas in danger?

Yes
Information is being gathered and we will put out some talking points and comment suggestions for the public like we did on the last round of RMP's. I'm planning a big push for comments the last week before the deadline. Right now the main concern is to get as much information to the BLM as we can.

 

[scoutabout]

Yes
Information is being gathered and we will put out some talking points and comment suggestions for the public like we did on the last round of RMP's. I'm planning a big push for comments the last week before the deadline. Right now the main concern is to get as much information to the BLM as we can.

Awesome!

 

[anderson750]

I talked to Dale Bartholemew this morning and I have a bunch of trail data coming from him today. Don is going to talk to Tri State OHV and as of today, I have not had any luck finding anyone in the mountain bike community who can point me in the direction of someone who may have any of that data. Any suggestions?

 

[Samuraiman]

As far as the Mountain bike crew. At the Edge bike shop here in Hurricane has a great group of guys. They are very concerned about there routes.. I am not sure of the number there. Should be on the internet somewhere! I talked to several of them at the meeting, also saved a few of their butt's on the trails.

 

[Samuraiman]

Today is the last day for comments. Hopefully everyone was able to get them in.