General Tech Steering Bind - Saginaw Box

[cruiseroutfit]

I'm running a 4 bolt Saginaw car box (Nova, Impala, etc) on my FJ40. Its linked to my column via two Spicer steering u-joints. Its tapped for hydraulic assist and I'm running an older 1.5" x 6" RockLogic ram. The box was a new reman unit 2.5 years ago. At that time we tapped the ram assist lines, it went very smoothly and has worked great since.

So Friday I'm heading up the canyon on my way to a trailhead. I got to take a slight right turn and my steering 'stops' not like a binding or out of power feeling, more like a completely mechanical 'stop'. I quickly slow down and try the turn again and sure enough, it works no problems. I'm very leary at this point, get to our stopping point and I spend a few minutes looking around, all looks OK. U-joints are fine (visual), no major play, and the actual steering linkage is aok, no binding, no interference. We head up the trail and 3 or 4 more times throughout the day it does the same thing. Always while turning slight right, if I stop and bump it back it turns just fine.

I'm going to start tear down tomorrow. It could be a u-joint I suppose? One of the caps could have a buggered bearing but these are heavy duty bearings and really for steering they are major overkill. Could be the box, but it has performed flawlessly for a couple of years. I don't think it was starved of fluid, it felt like a definite 'clank' where as loss of fluid or pump power and you can manually work through it. Anyone heard of a ram failure? I suppose there could be a nasty ridge forming inside of my ram, and it would make sense for it to happen at or near the straight position which is when mine is happening. That would be a simple fix I suppose.

Has anyone dissassembled one of the old RockLogic rams? Anyone building these locally anymore or shall I go with a WestTexas unit if it does in deed need replacement?

 

[bryson]

Is it possible that it is a clamp bolt on an adjusting sleeve binding against something...?

To me, it doesn't sound ram related unless the ram is making physical contact with something externally. But, the rams are very simple inside, and I think we could locate some parts fairly easily if you find some that need replacing.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Is it possible that it is a clamp bolt on an adjusting sleeve binding against something...?

To me, it doesn't sound ram related unless the ram is making physical contact with something externally. But, the rams are very simple inside, and I think we could locate some parts fairly easily if you find some that need replacing.

Nope, hi-steer with DOM rods and 80 ends, absolutely no where they can bind especially without the suspension tweaked. The other idea I had was a broken birf, I'm running Long's so I'm pretty doubtful, plus they don't make any noise in locked 4WD but I've heard of crazier things. A small chunk of birf shell getting stuck in the void of a birf and housing can absolutely cause a bind of steering.

 

[I Lean]

That is weird. First step, take the ram off, undo the lines from the box to the ram, cap the fittings, and drive without the ram just to see if it's the ram or the box. If it's fixed, then disassemble the ram to see if there's a wear ridge inside. (which I'd be really surprised to see) It's just a snap ring that holds the end gland in the cylinder. Rebuild parts should be easy to get, if necessary.

Wood was telling me a few days ago that he had a steering box that worked fine for a while, then somehow a ball escaped from it's proper area and chewed itself up inside the piston. He didn't understand how it happened, but it did. That could have happened to you too?

 

[Rot Box]

Not sure about the ram, but I've had similar issues with steering bind and it ended up being a U-joint on the axle shaft :-\

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Man I'm stumped. I've been playing with it for the last hour. Driving it up and down the road, fast, slow, in 4WD, front axle locked, back and forth and I get no bind at all... just the usually operation. There is a slight amount of play at my input on the steering box, therefor I could have an input bearing thats on it way out and possible lost a bearing or two??

I've got a new box on the way, figured worst case I will just swap the box (a PITA) and while I've got it all torn down check and double check the steering u-joints, etc.

I really wish I could get it to bind again, at least when I'm ready for it I can stop and figure out where its bound.

 

[SAMI]

You forgot to mention the 40 minutes spent turning the tires lock to lock in the driveway to get an idea of where it might be coming from.. The sound seemed to get louder and more pronounced, and I could feel it in teh steering wheel, and in the sliders.

Good luck with it, let me know if you need a hand.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

You forgot to mention the 40 minutes spent turning the tires lock to lock in the driveway to get an idea of where it might be coming from.. The sound seemed to get louder and more pronounced, and I could feel it in teh steering wheel, and in the sliders.

Good luck with it, let me know if you need a hand.

I'm not sure what that sound was and while we could feel it. I tried to drive the Cruiser all over tonight and get it as hot as it would driving up the canyon, no real noise and no binding.

Gonna pickup the new box tomorrow and verify how much play the input should have, at this point mine feels like it has way too much so I'm guessing a bearing went south. Tomorrow night is wrench night if you feel like hearing me cuss at my Cruiser and dog

 

[cruiseroutfit]

New box in hand... not sure if I want to use it though as its a 3.5 turn (lock to lock) verus the 4.25 turn I have in there now. This will speed up my steering (roughly 20%) and I'll lose roughly that much steering power too. Of course this is the only box they have in town

I could always swap the 4.25 guts out of my old unit, assuming they all check out OK and thats not where my binding was coming from.

 

[Erik d_lux]

Since youre trying to trouble shoot, replacing the guts could be a bad idea. Plus if it still binds, just put your old box back on sine it would obviously not be the problem.

Let me know if you need help/tools

 

[cruiseroutfit]

I might just bolt this box on sans hydro-assist for now, I've got another box on the way that will be here Friday and I'm hopeful that will be 4.25 turn. With my pitman arm unhooked, the ram is doing its job bind free. It doesn't have the power to fully move the tires lock to lock (didn't expect it to) but it doesn't have any bind or noise operating on its own.

Option #7344, if the input of my old box is trashed, such as a damaged bearing. I could always pull out the entire input assemble out of the new box and set it up in my old one?

Eric thanks for the offer

 

[I Lean]

Option #7344, if the input of my old box is trashed, such as a damaged bearing. I could always pull out the entire input assemble out of the new box and set it up in my old one?

At that point it's probably easier/safer just to port the new box, that way you eliminate any possibility of mismatched parts between boxes.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Box is pulled and while there is a bit of wear on seals and the bearings, there isn't an instant 'giveaway' as to the root of the bind I experienced. At this point?? I've got my fingers really crossed that the other Saginaw box on its way is actually a 4.25 turn box. Other than that I can only assume it was the ram or my knuckles.??

 

[Greg]

Have you made any changes to the FJ40 recently Kurt? Tires, hubs, etc? Just wondering if something that shouldn't be related, is.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Nada, everything has been the same for 2+ years and the box is really one of the youngest components.

One thing caught my eye... 22 balls in the piston setup. Both of the online tutorials has more, one had 24 and the other 26. Could have to do with the number of turns but if I was short a ball or two it could bind. But why now after 2 years?

I've got this box all put together... I'll report back Friday when the new box arrives.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Oh, on a better note. I can go through these boxes in 20-30 minutes now

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Alright, maybe I am making a bigger deal out of this than it needs to be?

Is a 3-3/8 turn-turn box that bad compared to a 4-1/4?

XJ's & TJ's are 3-3/8 but CJ's are 4-3/8. While there are obvious outside factors like pitman and steering arm lengths... is the XJ/TJ 'twitchy' compared to a CJ? Maybe I won't notice the 'faster' steering?

 

[I Lean]

Nada, everything has been the same for 2+ years and the box is really one of the youngest components.

One thing caught my eye... 22 balls in the piston setup. Both of the online tutorials has more, one had 24 and the other 26. Could have to do with the number of turns but if I was short a ball or two it could bind. But why now after 2 years?

I've got this box all put together... I'll report back Friday when the new box arrives.

The number of balls varies box to box, so I wouldn't be scared, nor would I think 22 is too few. That's still a lot of bearings working in the worm shaft and piston.

Alright, maybe I am making a bigger deal out of this than it needs to be?

Is a 3-3/8 turn-turn box that bad compared to a 4-1/4?

XJ's & TJ's are 3-3/8 but CJ's are 4-3/8. While there are obvious outside factors like pitman and steering arm lengths... is the XJ/TJ 'twitchy' compared to a CJ? Maybe I won't notice the 'faster' steering?

I had a 3 turn Monte Carlo box on my old flatty, it was fine. You'll probably NOTICE the difference, but I doubt it'll be an unpleasant change--just a change. Steering power won't change that much either....the power part of the box is the same, the hydraulic assist is the same, so the only change is the mechanical force. I'd guess you don't use much manual force either way.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Well, my wildest dreams came true. The box that arrived today is a 4.25 turn-turn. I'll go ahead and tap this one for the ram and give it a go. The only downer is that this one is Atsco, a seemingly decent rebuilder but the other one was A1-Cardone and it truthfully looked a little better. Hard to put my finger on the difference.

Time to tear apart the new box for porting

 

[cruiseroutfit]

New box has been stripped, ported and rebuilt. Things went smoothly except for an exploded 7/16" drill bit. Thankfully it didn't do any damage and I was able to finish drilling the port and it tapped cleanly. I'm ready to re-install it on the rig and give it a test run. Wish me luck and no more random binding.