- Location
- Never Far From Nowhere
Interesting.
SUWA is busted!!!
- Thread starter greenjeep
- Start date
- Location
- Never Far From Nowhere
Is there a SUWA BB? I've looked in the past and never found anything.
Brett
Meat-Hippy
- Location
- Salt Lake City Utah
There isn't a forum on Suwa's website...
A little offtopic, but I found this while cruisin xmissions suwa site... anyone know what it is? http://www.gordonswenson.com/4w4w/
Brad Yates used to be active here on RME, he might have some information.
- Location
- Never Far From Nowhere
If I recall it was a front for SUWA. They got funding from them and got their name in the paper a couple of times. I'm not sure if they are still 'active'.
- Location
- Sandy, Ut
Been around for awhile, I think it never went past the building of the page?
I too support Wilderness, just not to the extent of SUWA and I don't propose we include Wilderness with faulty inventories... I think 80% of the proposed Wilderness is legit, if they were willing to comprimise and leave EVERY existing route open, I'd be OK with the designation.
- Location
- Never Far From Nowhere
Technically as a 'non-profit' they are supposed to provide all that information upon request.
- Location
- The Land Northward (Bountiful), Utah
wow! that IS quite the list. sucks to be in suwa right now...
dieslcruisrhead
Registered User
- Location
- Park City & Heber City Utah
Just so people are aware of what is going on here...
I don't want to be controversial here but it is pretty clear that this is a hit job on SUWA related to a couple of its board members, who did things in their personal lives but according to the SL Trib article and the Dept of Justice, has nothing to do with SUWA itself.
This is a publicity stunt and whatever financial documents come out of it (news flash: SUWA's documents and finance information are already publicly available at www.guidestar.org) are nothing other than lip service. Of course SUWA shouldn't appoint crooks to its board, but how do you know? Does anyone not think that these politicians aren't dealing with crooks, daily, themselves?
What this is really about is (Utah legislature's recent obsession with) energy exploration, not off-road designation (and we are at the very bottom of importance of this). But we happen to be on the cool guy list here so we are (or at least USA-ALL is) kept in the loop. This is about the BLM actually doing their job, which is shared designation of land use between enthusiasts and private individuals and the RPMs and their allotment of land for energy exploration, and energy exploration simply wants more of it. And guess what -- for the most part, 4WD access has won what it was after, as again, the RPMs are showing us and the BLM is being very fair as far as I can tell. Nevertheless, these guys including USA-ALL wants to go for the jugular here.
The good news is this will knock a lot of the credibility out of SUWA and will reduce their impact (which has -- frankly -- already had the sails taken out of them, and the results of the recent RMPs are a perfect example of this)... So we will probably get some decent traction out of this including, less credibility from them on roads and wilderness designation in the next 1-2 years. B
But are there hidden costs? Does anyone actually want a lot of the land use conflicts actually maybe go away sometime instead of perpetrating it such as what was done with this? Does anyone actually want to create open cooperation with SUWA?
The reality is this is typical USA-ALL that thinks aggressively and this way and seems to think in terms of week-long periods. I would not be quick to embrace this as right or correct, it is incredibly short-sighted and uncooperative when inroads to working with SUWA and the BLM on reducing 4WD issues and shared management has never been better.
Andre Shoumatoff
Land Use Coordinator, Wasatch Cruisers 4WD Club
I don't want to be controversial here but it is pretty clear that this is a hit job on SUWA related to a couple of its board members, who did things in their personal lives but according to the SL Trib article and the Dept of Justice, has nothing to do with SUWA itself.
This is a publicity stunt and whatever financial documents come out of it (news flash: SUWA's documents and finance information are already publicly available at www.guidestar.org) are nothing other than lip service. Of course SUWA shouldn't appoint crooks to its board, but how do you know? Does anyone not think that these politicians aren't dealing with crooks, daily, themselves?
What this is really about is (Utah legislature's recent obsession with) energy exploration, not off-road designation (and we are at the very bottom of importance of this). But we happen to be on the cool guy list here so we are (or at least USA-ALL is) kept in the loop. This is about the BLM actually doing their job, which is shared designation of land use between enthusiasts and private individuals and the RPMs and their allotment of land for energy exploration, and energy exploration simply wants more of it. And guess what -- for the most part, 4WD access has won what it was after, as again, the RPMs are showing us and the BLM is being very fair as far as I can tell. Nevertheless, these guys including USA-ALL wants to go for the jugular here.
The good news is this will knock a lot of the credibility out of SUWA and will reduce their impact (which has -- frankly -- already had the sails taken out of them, and the results of the recent RMPs are a perfect example of this)... So we will probably get some decent traction out of this including, less credibility from them on roads and wilderness designation in the next 1-2 years. B
But are there hidden costs? Does anyone actually want a lot of the land use conflicts actually maybe go away sometime instead of perpetrating it such as what was done with this? Does anyone actually want to create open cooperation with SUWA?
The reality is this is typical USA-ALL that thinks aggressively and this way and seems to think in terms of week-long periods. I would not be quick to embrace this as right or correct, it is incredibly short-sighted and uncooperative when inroads to working with SUWA and the BLM on reducing 4WD issues and shared management has never been better.
Andre Shoumatoff
Land Use Coordinator, Wasatch Cruisers 4WD Club
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utahmike
Lobbyist \ Consultant
- Location
- Salt Lake City, UT
Forgive the mispellings and bad grammar
I just wrote a HUGE reply to Andre's post and tried to spell check it and it disappeared. It's just as well I was pretty worked up as I wrote it.
So let me sum it up.
Andre you and I know each other and I respect and like you. But I disagree with you strongly on so many points in your post. However if you ever get a bio-diesel station opened in Utah county let me know I will support you big time.
Work with SUWA? Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. They want nothing to do with compromise. They have had since 1983 to resolve the wilderness issue and they have rejected many offers. Factory Butte is a perfect example of thier unwillingness to compromise. I worked with SUWA, BLM, County officials every 3 weeks for one full year. We moved a mile to the middle they moved an inch. If the wilderness issue were ever resolved the lot of 'em would have to go get real jobs. I dont think they want full resolution. WE DO!
Our legislators are doing a good job. This was not a publicity stunt it is about representing the people of Utah. I work closely with many of those men and women and they are good people who work hard. They are volunteer legislators and live and work among all of us. They arent your stereotypical "politicians". They are pretty regular folk.
Access to public land is important for recreation and energy development. It is important to allow for natural resouce development so that there is more supply of energy and so costs can stabilize or go down. The economic benefit of more energy development and production will allow additional technology to grow proportionately and therefore result in better use of resources and the new uses of other forms of energy and resource.
USA-ALL can't win. We are too aggressive, too apathetic, too political, too ATV oriented. :sick: puke. We'll never make everyone happy, but we will try. USA-ALL can be aggressive when it needs to be. We are also very diplomatic. Thats how we got in the "cool guy" club that is so in the loop. You should be stoked that somebody representing motorized recreation is at the table, and even occasionally calling the shots. If guys like you would work with us we would be better able to advocate your interests and serve you.
I could give you a dozen reasons and examples of how short sighted we are not. We have things going on that will not fully develop untill next year. We know of things in Final RMP's that we helped negotiate that wont be revealed for some time, we plan for and consider the future on a monthly basis, and here in our office on a weekly basis.
Since USA-ALL is in the cool guy club we know whats going on with a lot of things. We know who the real players are and who is in the know. It drives me nuts to read on various forums guys spouting such uninformed opinions, I love opinions, I have many stong ones myself. But if your going to state things as facts or strong opinions you better be able to back it up. You don't have to agree with us. I enjoy a healthy debate and don't mind being wrong. I like it when people ask intelligent questions that cause us to rethink things and change policy. That is how good policy comes about. But you took a few cheap shots at us and others have as well. Unfortunately there is an amazing amount of misinformation out there about our organization, we have a lot of damage control to do. USA-ALL is so different than the USA-ALL of last year. We're better, more focused, more organized, simply put our problems from last year have refined us. The old USA-ALL was on occasion too aggressive, and had little tact or diplomacy. It was our disagreement over these very issues that caused the near implosion early last year. We have emerged stronger and renewed. It really sadens me to read some of the stuff on here. I know the great work we do, I know our intentions, and I know our shortcomings. But it is still disheartening to see the allegations that many have made that what we are doing is bad or our motives are impure. We're average people trying to do the best we can. Sometime we fall short, sometimes we accomplish big things. Always our intent is good. We don't have a ton of money, we don't pay big salaries, we don't have employee benefits, we have a mediocre office with borrowed furnishings, and we operate on a shoe string. And then we get to listen to everyone on our own side who takes issue with us and everyone on the other side who hates us for trying to protect our side including those of you who degrade us. Its crazy
. But at the end of the day it is worth it. When I am out enjoying our mountains and desert I remember, I am selfish, I am doing this for me and my family so they can enjoy what I have had. I hope it benefits you and your family, and if it doesn't come talk to us so we can see if we might help you out more. I invite any one of you to spend a few hours working with me, or just to come to our office and talk to me and I am confident you will come away with a different feeling than the negative one some on this forum posess. My door is open, I hope to hear from many of you.
I am curious, is Andre's comments and opinions shared by members of this forum?
How about U4WDA?
Side note: 501 c 3's such as SUWA and USA-ALL (non-profit charitable organizations) are only required to allow thier tax documents to be reviewed by the public; not ALL FINANCIAL documents. They are not required to disclose donors or other accounting related financial records. The documents needed to show inpropriety or legitimate activity are not available on guidestar. Guidestar has 990's and other public tax documents The records the legislature is asking for are not publicly available. If you dont beleive me about what non-profs have to disclose call the IRS. I have double checked this one when some claimed we had to show them everything. Not so.
I just wrote a HUGE reply to Andre's post and tried to spell check it and it disappeared. It's just as well I was pretty worked up as I wrote it.
So let me sum it up.
Andre you and I know each other and I respect and like you. But I disagree with you strongly on so many points in your post. However if you ever get a bio-diesel station opened in Utah county let me know I will support you big time.
Work with SUWA? Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. They want nothing to do with compromise. They have had since 1983 to resolve the wilderness issue and they have rejected many offers. Factory Butte is a perfect example of thier unwillingness to compromise. I worked with SUWA, BLM, County officials every 3 weeks for one full year. We moved a mile to the middle they moved an inch. If the wilderness issue were ever resolved the lot of 'em would have to go get real jobs. I dont think they want full resolution. WE DO!
Our legislators are doing a good job. This was not a publicity stunt it is about representing the people of Utah. I work closely with many of those men and women and they are good people who work hard. They are volunteer legislators and live and work among all of us. They arent your stereotypical "politicians". They are pretty regular folk.
Access to public land is important for recreation and energy development. It is important to allow for natural resouce development so that there is more supply of energy and so costs can stabilize or go down. The economic benefit of more energy development and production will allow additional technology to grow proportionately and therefore result in better use of resources and the new uses of other forms of energy and resource.
USA-ALL can't win. We are too aggressive, too apathetic, too political, too ATV oriented. :sick: puke. We'll never make everyone happy, but we will try. USA-ALL can be aggressive when it needs to be. We are also very diplomatic. Thats how we got in the "cool guy" club that is so in the loop. You should be stoked that somebody representing motorized recreation is at the table, and even occasionally calling the shots. If guys like you would work with us we would be better able to advocate your interests and serve you.
I could give you a dozen reasons and examples of how short sighted we are not. We have things going on that will not fully develop untill next year. We know of things in Final RMP's that we helped negotiate that wont be revealed for some time, we plan for and consider the future on a monthly basis, and here in our office on a weekly basis.
Since USA-ALL is in the cool guy club we know whats going on with a lot of things. We know who the real players are and who is in the know. It drives me nuts to read on various forums guys spouting such uninformed opinions, I love opinions, I have many stong ones myself. But if your going to state things as facts or strong opinions you better be able to back it up. You don't have to agree with us. I enjoy a healthy debate and don't mind being wrong. I like it when people ask intelligent questions that cause us to rethink things and change policy. That is how good policy comes about. But you took a few cheap shots at us and others have as well. Unfortunately there is an amazing amount of misinformation out there about our organization, we have a lot of damage control to do. USA-ALL is so different than the USA-ALL of last year. We're better, more focused, more organized, simply put our problems from last year have refined us. The old USA-ALL was on occasion too aggressive, and had little tact or diplomacy. It was our disagreement over these very issues that caused the near implosion early last year. We have emerged stronger and renewed. It really sadens me to read some of the stuff on here. I know the great work we do, I know our intentions, and I know our shortcomings. But it is still disheartening to see the allegations that many have made that what we are doing is bad or our motives are impure. We're average people trying to do the best we can. Sometime we fall short, sometimes we accomplish big things. Always our intent is good. We don't have a ton of money, we don't pay big salaries, we don't have employee benefits, we have a mediocre office with borrowed furnishings, and we operate on a shoe string. And then we get to listen to everyone on our own side who takes issue with us and everyone on the other side who hates us for trying to protect our side including those of you who degrade us. Its crazy
. But at the end of the day it is worth it. When I am out enjoying our mountains and desert I remember, I am selfish, I am doing this for me and my family so they can enjoy what I have had. I hope it benefits you and your family, and if it doesn't come talk to us so we can see if we might help you out more. I invite any one of you to spend a few hours working with me, or just to come to our office and talk to me and I am confident you will come away with a different feeling than the negative one some on this forum posess. My door is open, I hope to hear from many of you. I am curious, is Andre's comments and opinions shared by members of this forum?
How about U4WDA?
Side note: 501 c 3's such as SUWA and USA-ALL (non-profit charitable organizations) are only required to allow thier tax documents to be reviewed by the public; not ALL FINANCIAL documents. They are not required to disclose donors or other accounting related financial records. The documents needed to show inpropriety or legitimate activity are not available on guidestar. Guidestar has 990's and other public tax documents The records the legislature is asking for are not publicly available. If you dont beleive me about what non-profs have to disclose call the IRS. I have double checked this one when some claimed we had to show them everything. Not so.
- Location
- Sandy, Ut
Andre, the RMP's havn't even been decided... for all we know we are about to lose 1/2 our routes? Do you know something I don't
You are really confusing some issues. Several of these Representatives have been VERY key in saving OHV routes, not OHV routes that happen to have some mineral exploration... just plain OHV routes, to question their interests is not only wrong, its lame IMO. Sure Minerals are big money for their local economy, why shouldn't they look out for their constituents? I wouldn't want it any different. But do know many of the land use battles happening all over the state are twice removed from oil. If a drill permit is issued... they go in, we don't.
Do you really think this is "just" about mineral exploration and not OHV's?? I've got a 28" stack of RMP books to set your straight. OHV designations and Mineral Exploration are mutually exclusive for the most part in the RMP's. Areas that are open to OHV's can be closed to mineral extraction, and vice versa... We havn't seen the RMP's decisions yet, they could go 180* on us and we could literally lose 1/2 of the trails in the 6 RMP areas, even under the best Alternatives we are losing OHV routes, and at the same time they could allow more drilling, we just don't know. Again, the RMP's dictate the designations for mineral entry COMPLETELY different than OHV routes. Oil companies don't use OHV routes, they doze a 30ft wide road in from the nearest highway, and their permits let them. Closing an area to OHV use isn't going to stop mineral extraction.
I know this is a little off the SUWA topic, but a few points in your reply boiled my inners
Brett
Meat-Hippy
- Location
- Salt Lake City Utah
So, is the information being requested already publicly available or??? If it is, what's the point of requesting this?
Seth
These go to 11
- Location
- 2 weeks from everywhere
I do not speak for U4. That being said I think Kurt's reply says volumes.
Even through all of the hard feelings and disagreements this past year I think everyone agrees that USA-ALL is very much needed. The average wheeler knows very little about the complexities of these issues. I for one know how large the task at hand is. And while I may disagree with the prominence or priority some issues receive. I will not question your judgment or arm chair quarterback. If one feels strongly enough about a given issues they should be actively involved in that issue. The smallest action is worth much more then the largest intention.
dieslcruisrhead
Registered User
- Location
- Park City & Heber City Utah
No these guys are right..
I went through the letter after I posted this and they are asking for pretty detailed financial information, and correct, the tax information (it is still a 10+ page document that is quite thorough) are available publicly. The document addresses salaries and financial disclosures between board members and the organization and is fairly thorough. But it does not contain the detailed letters and internal documents and communication they are asking for. But to be honest, they are looking for very detailed information that I doubt SUWA might not even have records for so we might even have a round two or three of this from the Hill.
The source of my original anger is, again, I thought the concept behind this campaign is a little extreme. For example, look at the title of this thread, "SUWA is Busted," when has SUWA actually done anything wrong that we are aware of? I do think it is wrong to take advantage of it and short sighted to join these Representatives in doing it. But I am not a politician so perhaps I am wrong. I am curious to see how the media comes out on this and will be watching the news tonight. It will probably fine as far as the 4WD community is concerned because USA-ALL is just a supporter, not a culprit. But if any positive relationship were to come out of it, SUWA might remember that it was the "4WD community" that supported the event when for all we know they operate 100% or 110% legal.
However, I am realizing from your posts that I am ill-informed, particularly with the situation of the RMPs. But I have talked to several people about it and these were the opinions that I got, that the BLM was being fairly fair in regards to access for at least OHV vehicles. I was also told they are not planning on using sweeping wilderness areas as far as I have been told, which I interpreted as a victory against the likes of SUWA and others as this seems to be the approach they are after. But I have not read the RPMs...
Anyway, not to cause controversy or stick a thorn into something, and Mike especially [and you too Kurt] I appreciate your candor in your responses. Mike this is also not an attack on you and I completely admit using my "old USA-ALL" brain and you have definitely convinced me to think again. If you would like I will also gladly edit my original post as well....
It just seemed very extreme particularly at this day in age of dirty partisan politics. But maybe this is the norm and me and the rest of the country just has to get used it. But to me, these things seem to only throw gasoline on the fire, not extinguish them. It comes down to the original discussion that we (Mike, Kurt, and I) have had several times, on the weaknesses of aligning ourselves with a particular party or political ideology. I believe that we may have been able to isolate ourselves from perceived environmental damage as most of us are environmentalists too, we just enjoy it in a different way, but people as simply unaware of this and they have been sold a bad bill of goods. But by SUWA unfortunately. I also believe that we can recreate the public's interpretation of rural 4WD enthusiasts as respectful and responsible much as most people are in rural areas they are seeking to close. And finally, I also believe that taking a uniquely partisan approach to these issues is not the correct path, and it also the path of least resistance. To me this wreaked of extreme partisanship. As we know, it was 43 of 46 who signed the letter that were Republicans.
From your responses I do admit I was wrong I do apologize for this.
I went through the letter after I posted this and they are asking for pretty detailed financial information, and correct, the tax information (it is still a 10+ page document that is quite thorough) are available publicly. The document addresses salaries and financial disclosures between board members and the organization and is fairly thorough. But it does not contain the detailed letters and internal documents and communication they are asking for. But to be honest, they are looking for very detailed information that I doubt SUWA might not even have records for so we might even have a round two or three of this from the Hill.
The source of my original anger is, again, I thought the concept behind this campaign is a little extreme. For example, look at the title of this thread, "SUWA is Busted," when has SUWA actually done anything wrong that we are aware of? I do think it is wrong to take advantage of it and short sighted to join these Representatives in doing it. But I am not a politician so perhaps I am wrong. I am curious to see how the media comes out on this and will be watching the news tonight. It will probably fine as far as the 4WD community is concerned because USA-ALL is just a supporter, not a culprit. But if any positive relationship were to come out of it, SUWA might remember that it was the "4WD community" that supported the event when for all we know they operate 100% or 110% legal.
However, I am realizing from your posts that I am ill-informed, particularly with the situation of the RMPs. But I have talked to several people about it and these were the opinions that I got, that the BLM was being fairly fair in regards to access for at least OHV vehicles. I was also told they are not planning on using sweeping wilderness areas as far as I have been told, which I interpreted as a victory against the likes of SUWA and others as this seems to be the approach they are after. But I have not read the RPMs...
Anyway, not to cause controversy or stick a thorn into something, and Mike especially [and you too Kurt] I appreciate your candor in your responses. Mike this is also not an attack on you and I completely admit using my "old USA-ALL" brain and you have definitely convinced me to think again. If you would like I will also gladly edit my original post as well....
It just seemed very extreme particularly at this day in age of dirty partisan politics. But maybe this is the norm and me and the rest of the country just has to get used it. But to me, these things seem to only throw gasoline on the fire, not extinguish them. It comes down to the original discussion that we (Mike, Kurt, and I) have had several times, on the weaknesses of aligning ourselves with a particular party or political ideology. I believe that we may have been able to isolate ourselves from perceived environmental damage as most of us are environmentalists too, we just enjoy it in a different way, but people as simply unaware of this and they have been sold a bad bill of goods. But by SUWA unfortunately. I also believe that we can recreate the public's interpretation of rural 4WD enthusiasts as respectful and responsible much as most people are in rural areas they are seeking to close. And finally, I also believe that taking a uniquely partisan approach to these issues is not the correct path, and it also the path of least resistance. To me this wreaked of extreme partisanship. As we know, it was 43 of 46 who signed the letter that were Republicans.
From your responses I do admit I was wrong I do apologize for this.
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I would like to think I am an average guy, average wheeler, I don't really know a lot about whats going on with the RMP's (I am sure someone could talk to me for days about it and not cover it all), or many of the other areas I go to and what is at stake. My EXCUSE is that I am busy, I own a business and if I was lucky and ignored the problem it might go away, right? Didn't think so.
So, I need people like Mike and Kurt and all the others who never get thanked to help me out and make the choices and do the hard work for me so after a long day of excuses I still have a place to go wheel. I don't help with the hard stuff so the least I can do is help with the money part, that's why I am a gold member for USA-ALL and I make extra donations to U4WDA through the year.
Time to renew too I think....
Chris R.
PS Keep up the good work Mike!
So, I need people like Mike and Kurt and all the others who never get thanked to help me out and make the choices and do the hard work for me so after a long day of excuses I still have a place to go wheel. I don't help with the hard stuff so the least I can do is help with the money part, that's why I am a gold member for USA-ALL and I make extra donations to U4WDA through the year.
Time to renew too I think....
Chris R.
PS Keep up the good work Mike!