Toyota steering knuckle leak

[cruiseroutfit]

No need to chuck the wheel bearings but the upper and lower trunion bearings sure use a Timken out of a Jeep part # 3030 It has a steeper thrust angle which gives it a better load cababilty than the Toyo Koyo.

Too funny, for years Toyota owners have been swaying away from the Timken 30303 as that exact thrust angle you are actually referring to is shallower than that of the correct application which is Koyo. The Timkens wear FAR faster than the Koyo.

The Timkens are the equivalent to side loading a wheel bearing that is made to take axial loads.

I'll have to look into this #0 lube that you are selling, regardless I contend that if it is too viscous I would not feel comfortable recommending anyone put it in their knuckles.

Just to clarify when you say #0 are you referring to SAE? AGMA? ISO? You have to give us a frame of reference here.

 

[solidfrontaxle]

No need to chuck the wheel bearings but the upper and lower trunion bearings sure use a Timken out of a Jeep part # 3030 It has a steeper thrust angle which gives it a better load cababilty than the Toyo Koyo.

I love how toyota copied the Dana axle EXACTLY (seriously, I can't tell the difference just looking at them), but then changed the trunnion bearing to be crappier. Those devious swindlers, what will they think of next? Intentionally giving their vehicles poor gas mileage?

 

[cruiseroutfit]

well please tell us then cruiser outfitter engineer molybedendite

Let me google that for you

More specifically,

Let me google that for you

As pertaining to our conversation:
Use as lubricant

MoS2 with particle sizes in the range of 1-100 µm is a common dry lubricant. Few alternatives exist that can confer the high lubricity and stability up to 350 °C in oxidizing environments. Sliding friction tests of MoS2 using a pin on disc tester at low loads (0.1-2 N) give friction coefficient values of <0.1.[5][6]

Molybdenum disulfide is often a component of blends and composites where low friction is sought. A variety of oils and greases are used, because they retain their lubricity even in cases of almost complete oil loss, thus finding a use in critical applications such as aircraft engines. When added to plastics, MoS2 forms a composite with improved strength as well as reduced friction. Polymers that have been filled with MoS2 include nylon (with the trade name Nylatron), Teflon, and Vespel. Self-lubricating composite coatings for high-temperature applications have been developed consisting of molybdenum disulfide and titanium nitride by chemical vapor deposition.[7]

-Wikipedia

Really I'm not sure why this matters. The Moly component is mearly and additive Toyota specifies in which to gain the wear characteristics they desire in the CV application. However that is beside the point that they call for a moly blend grease and not a moly blend oil or viscous gear lube. And further more from the factory they use a moly blend grease and not a moly blend oil or lube. I fail to see where this circle logic is taking us? If your asking me to contend that a gear lube could have moly in it, your absolutely right, it sure could and there are cases in which it does. But this has nothing to do with the grease Toyota's engineers designed their axle for.

You never answered my question. Would you recommend that Toyota owners used a #0 miracle oil in their wheel bearings as opposed to the grease Toyota calls for?

 

[solidfrontaxle]

As pertaining to our conversation:
Use as lubricant

MoS2 with particle sizes in the range of 1-100 µm is a common dry lubricant. Few alternatives exist that can confer the high lubricity and stability up to 350 °C in oxidizing environments. Sliding friction tests of MoS2 using a pin on disc tester at low loads (0.1-2 N) give friction coefficient values of <0.1.[5][6]

Molybdenum disulfide is often a component of blends and composites where low friction is sought. A variety of oils and greases are used, because they retain their lubricity even in cases of almost complete oil loss, thus finding a use in critical applications such as aircraft engines. When added to plastics, MoS2 forms a composite with improved strength as well as reduced friction. Polymers that have been filled with MoS2 include nylon (with the trade name Nylatron), Teflon, and Vespel. Self-lubricating composite coatings for high-temperature applications have been developed consisting of molybdenum disulfide and titanium nitride by chemical vapor deposition.[7]

-Wikipedia

Kurt, the guys at Toyota have been known to edit lubrication related entries on wikipedia.





Trust no one.

 

[bryson]

Kurt, the guys at Toyota have been known to edit lubrication related entries on wikipedia.





Trust no one.

You two really shouldn't be using your real names...



I have 2 closed knuckle Dana front ends sitting at my house, and I'd love to host a conspiracy busting party and let everyone take a look at them...

 

[backwoodsgoop]

# 0 grease

cruser outfitter the way they rate grease and oil is by a number scale. It goes like this #2 is the thickest then #1 then #0 #00 #000 then at this point it stwiches to oil and starts out at 1000 and works its way down to 10 w or so this is the universal scale off the grease and oil world, I am suprized being a engineer you didnt know this.

And yes I would recomend the # 0 sodium based grease because of its usage in areas that are prone to leakage and where high service intervals can be obtained

 

[cruiseroutfit]

cruser outfitter the way they rate grease and oil is by a number scale. It goes like this #2 is the thickest then #1 then #0 #00 #000 then at this point it stwiches to oil and starts out at 1000 and works its way down to 10 w or so this is the universal scale off the grease and oil world, I am suprized being a engineer you didnt know this.

Did you ever think there is more than one scale of lubrication?? SAE Gear, SAE Crankcase, AGMA Grade, ISO, NGLI and more. Hence why I asked above? You've still yet to answer the question yet its fair to assume your referring to the NLGI standard scale? Then again your supposed scale has "#2 as the thickest" which is not supported by the common NLGI scales in which they range to #6 and likely beyond, honestly never looked into thicker compounds. So who knows what scale your using.

It would be like asking for a "5" socket at Industrial supply. 5mm or 5 inch? A world of difference


Regardless, I stand by Toyota's engineers that recommend an NLGI #2 compared to your unknown scale #0

 

[backwoodsgoop]

correct grease

Heres a add I found from a place called tjoutfitters I emailed them and asked if they could elaborate just a tad on what they call the "correct grease" is it a molybedendite disulphate? or is it something else? my e-mail never went thru or was never answered maybee you guys can find out


Super knuckle kit is everything you need to complete the job correctly. It includes, Knuckle Rebuild Kit, Inner and Outer Wheel Bearings, and 4 Lbs of Grease.

DescriptionSSBKL3E - Disc Front End Super Knuckle Kit contains knuckle rebuild kit, inner wheel bearings, outer wheelbearing, and 4lbs of correct grease. DOES BOTH SIDES fits 76-79 (rectangle shim outline)SSBKL3L - Disc Front End Super Knuckle Kit contains knuckle rebuild kit, inner wheel bearings, outer wheelbearing, and 4lbs of correct grease. DOES BOTH SIDES fits 79-90 and Straight Axle Mini Truck / 4Runner (dogbone shim outline)SSBKL5 - FJ80 Super Knuckle Kit contains knuckle rebuild kit, inner wheel bearings, outer wheel bearing,and 4lbs of correct grease. DOES BOTH SIDES fits 91-97.
ALL BEARINGS ARE EITHER TIMKEN,SKF,or KOYO

 

[backwoodsgoop]

learn something new everyday

cool the grease scale goes to # 6 , In automotive circles I doubt theres any need for anything thicker than #2 Thanks that post I learned something new about grease. I sit corrected
The scale refers to #0 as a semi fluid so it is the scale we can agree on

 

[backwoodsgoop]

can something else cause the leak?

To the original poster. In answer to your question as far as something else causing the leak. Yes. Its called incompatability when you rebuilt the Frt end its possible that not all of the original grease was removed say for instance some remained in the CV shaft hub this could mix with the grease you used thin out the oil thats mixed into grease to provide lube and leak out of your knuckle.

 

[backwoodsgoop]

Dana spicer corp

How do I prove Dana Spicer sold plans to build the enclosed knuckle and the constant velocity joint designed by Frank Rezzeppa in 1929? Which is now known as the Birfield joint.

How do I prove that the grass is green and the sky is blue?

How do I prove that the United states helped Japan rebuild thier country after we leveled it with the" Fat man" and "little boy"? By helping them with getting thier automotive industry up and going.

I dont know buy you a history book.

As far as Toyota desinging this differential that has the cabability of containing a semi fluid lube. and downgrading it to contain a thick grease.
No I cant let you insult the Toyota engineers that knew the advantages of a semi fluid grease.

They actually made improvements in the design by adding a additional wheel bearing seal, moving the fill plug location to give it more fliud capacity, cutting out the spindle hub and gasket to give fluid a place to escape if in the event of a axle seal leak. No a lot of time and money went into improving this design.To contain Fluid not a thick grease.

Dana publications indicate to use 140w oil in the knuckle. But that was soon found to be troublesome with aside from brand spanking new ideal conditions it would leak out.
Manufacuters found the middle ground between oil and grease and used a semifluid. Sodium based because of its adheasion qualitys. And you actually want a small amount of discharge to coat the exposed steel with lube it helps prevent rusting and pitting . It also allows the felt wiper seal to clean the ball better before the rubber seal contacts the contaiminats.

I have done only but 1 mere Toyota differential but I have done other enclosed knuckle repairs on domestic rigs. I have seen up to a inch build up of dirt in the bottom of the ball when using a dry regular wheel bearing grease.

From the vauge wording of domestic manufacuters you can tell that they didnt really want to tell you exactly what this was. They beat around the bush using terms like "proper lube" but at least they didnt mislead.

Dont think I am picking on Toyota because I dont like their vehicles actually I think they are very well built and some thought is given to how they are designed to be able to repair them easily. I will get around to hounding the Ford High boys that think they gotta put power steering on these old trucks when all they really gotta do is rebuild their frt differential with them set up right there easy enough to steer (with reasonable size tires) that a little old lady could drive them. It takes about the same amount of looking on a Ford Forum guys whinning about needing power steering as it does looking at a Toyota site with a guy whinning about his leaking balls.

 

[Rot Box]

seriously?

 

[cruiseroutfit]

How do I prove Dana Spicer sold plans to build the enclosed knuckle and the constant velocity joint designed by Frank Rezzeppa in 1929? Which is now known as the Birfield joint.

I'm well familiar with the history, but you stated Toyota bought the rights to it which has neither been proven nor do I beleive it to be true. I believe they just started making them to their liking based on Dana's applications at the time.

As far as Toyota desinging this differential that has the cabability of containing a semi fluid lube. and downgrading it to contain a thick grease.
No I cant let you insult the Toyota engineers that knew the advantages of a semi fluid grease.

Why for the love of goats do you keep calling it a 'differential'. By no standards is an axle, or a knuckle, or a birf or a knuckle assembly known as a differential. For that matter even to call the actual 3rd member a differential is a bit misleading.

Manufacuters found the middle ground between oil and grease and used a semifluid. Sodium based because of its adheasion qualitys. And you actually want a small amount of discharge to coat the exposed steel with lube it helps prevent rusting and pitting . It also allows the felt wiper seal to clean the ball better before the rubber seal contacts the contaiminats.

You paint with a broad stroke. Manufactures such as Toyota did not go to a middle ground. Again (time for the crayons) Toyota recommends NGLI 2 in their knuckles. Always have, always will, and its been proven time and time again.

I have done only but 1 mere Toyota differential but I have done other enclosed knuckle repairs on domestic rigs. I have seen up to a inch build up of dirt in the bottom of the ball when using a dry regular wheel bearing grease.

Your experience and rational proceed you

From the vauge wording of domestic manufacuters you can tell that they didnt really want to tell you exactly what this was. They beat around the bush using terms like "proper lube" but at least they didnt mislead.

Really, they didn't want to tell you how to service your axle meanwhile Toyota was misleading

It takes about the same amount of looking on a Ford Forum guys whinning about needing power steering as it does looking at a Toyota site with a guy whinning about his leaking balls.

Oh so your a Ford pro too

 

[OREGON85]

Thanks backwoodsgoop, I've learned a lot. I decided every thing that requires grease or oil is too complicated and evil. Do you realize that even if you are right about everything you've posted that still NOBODY will believe you over Kurt? Why bother trying to continue? I can hardly follow what your getting.

 

[I Lean]

Thanks backwoodsgoop, I've learned a lot. I decided every thing that requires grease or oil is too complicated and evil.

That's true. I'm a convert to open knuckles that don't require either. (with the exception of the U-joint, which does take.....grease. DOH!)

 

[backwoodsgoop]

patent Rights

yes Toyota purchased the patentents from Dana corporation. The Japanese are respectfull enough of patent laws unlike other countrys. It has been a good working realationship so now you find a Dana spicer driveshaft in a new Toyota Tundra .
Over time I think old Kurt will come around. I know I have got him wondering and the next time he tears down a original knuckle assembly he will look at the semi fluid grease thats in there and wonder for a minute if the crasy backwoodsgoop guy might just be right. or he might just think yet another axle seal failure ,better get the double liped heavy duty seal from marlin. pack it full of regular thick #2 grease and keep his head stuck in the Toyota sand. Who knows?

 

[I Lean]

yes Toyota purchased the patentents from Dana corporation. The Japanese are respectfull enough of patent laws unlike other countrys. It has been a good working realationship so now you find a Dana spicer driveshaft in a new Toyota Tundra .
Over time I think old Kurt will come around. I know I have got him wondering and the next time he tears down a original knuckle assembly he will look at the semi fluid grease thats in there and wonder for a minute if the crasy backwoodsgoop guy might just be right. or he might just think yet another axle seal failure ,better get the double liped heavy duty seal from marlin. pack it full of regular thick #2 grease and keep his head stuck in the Toyota sand. Who knows?

That "semi fluid grease" is the whole problem. When it becomes "semi fluid", it oozes out all over the damn place. When it's nice clean grease (not combined with gear oil) it stays where it should be, which is inside the closed knuckle.

If you tear apart an old axle, it's pretty frequent for the differential and inner axleshafts to be coated with grease, since the "semi fluid" combination is moving around where it shouldn't be. It's a nasty mess, and yes it is caused by crappy oil seals.

Last time I broke a birfield in my old 4runner, I finally put the Marlin seals in. Now for the first time in it's life, that thing is not leaking out of the knuckle balls. The grease is still grease, not any kind of "semi fluid" that can leak past the not-very-good knuckle seals.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

yes Toyota purchased the patentents from Dana corporation. The Japanese are respectfull enough of patent laws unlike other countrys. It has been a good working realationship so now you find a Dana spicer driveshaft in a new Toyota Tundra .

Don't kid yourself, they were threatened with law suits in their early days for infringment. Post war Japan was not the Japan we know 50 years later, they basically took designs from several manufactures and morphed them into their own renditions.

Dana-Spicer Tundra u-joints were by no means the first Dana Corp product used OE by Toyota, but that has nothing to do with their business ideas 50+ years ago. Toyota's version of the closed knuckle axle likely didn't even meet the definition of patent infringement as they changed enough about it. Prove me wrong, show me anything that says Toyota bought a design from Dana. Even if they did buy an aspect of a design, does that mean they copied it verbatim? Of course not. Your still yet to answer 1/4 of the questions proposed in this thread... all you do is pop up with your backwoods expertise and assume your logic to stick.

Over time I think old Kurt will come around. I know I have got him wondering and the next time he tears down a original knuckle assembly he will look at the semi fluid grease thats in there and wonder for a minute if the crasy backwoodsgoop guy might just be right.

Again bud, you are no where near the first guy to come up with this bogus idea, so your thinking is neither revolutionary nor sane. I've heard this many times in the last dozen years. But I've already told you that... figure we ought to highlight the difference... the others figured it out, your still basing all your 'expertise' on the one Toyota axle you've ever touched. And until that axle has 50k+ miles on a rebuild and is still bone dry underneath, how can you even consider it a long term success matching that of grease installed knuckles? I'll be rebuilding every other Toyota knuckle like the last, with grease as Toyota specified. I see bone dry knuckles on 80 Series axles that have 100k+ miles... guess what is inside, NGLI 2. Whats the long term testing on yours? Don't tell me a Dana closed knuckle lol

Everyone else reading, you don't have to take my word for it, how about Toyota's, Marlin's, Bobby's, the collective members of dozens of Toyota forums and many here on RME. Toyota intended, designed for and installed grease in the knuckles.

Toyota sand...

Got a source on that?

 

[cruiseroutfit]

So lets go to the land of make believe and pretend for a minute that the felt and rubber wiper seals Toyota used are actually capable of holding a fluid like lubricant (which they are not as proven by the many that have tried). What would prevent the any viscous lubricant from working its way right down the spindle, and filling the hub full of lube, then leaking from one of the seals at the hub that were never designed to keep in anything but a light smear of grease?

I've seen this happen when axles are rebuilt using a variety of things other than what has been proven to work (again referring to the thousands of rigs out there running millions of miles on #2).

When you have 5 vehicles with a minimum of 50k miles each, then you can give us a report of your findings and only then will I change my mind. But its longevity and duplicability has not remotely because you rebuilt a knuckle (or a differential lol) a week ago and it doesn't appear to be leaking yet. Has it even been in 4WD for extended periods?

Can we see some pictures of said vehicle and some pictures of the knuckles post rebuild by you?

 

[backwoodsgoop]

pictures

http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx39/backwoodsgoop/IMG00029-

20090922-1209.jpg

http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx39/backwoodsgoop/IMG00031-20090922-1210.jpg

These are pictures of a 1973 Ford pick up with the # 0 sodium based lube in the knuckles. A semi fluid. Granted its not a Toyota its a nasty old Ford pile with rusted and pitted balls no leakage just the ideal amount of discharge to coat the steel ball. The repair was done a few months ago vehicle has been driven daily since. As long as the owner operates the 4X4 occiasonally to fling the lube around in the knuckle no worrys as they term "lubed for Life" and yes you to can contain this miricale lube in your balls but you still might want to get the heavy duty axle seal sounds good a double lip seal is a good idea in this application,

And just to point out this is a Ford ,12 bolts hold the metal cover on the knuckle, the metal spacer and seal are integral vrs the two part steel and rubber on the Toyota . Those are the only differences as it pertains to the wiper seal