TRUMP: Whats the real deal?

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pELYgroso

'Merica
Location
LEHI, UT
https://thehill.com/latino/324607-r...rants-commit-less-crime-than-us-born-citizens

I don't know if the Cato study really looks only at Texas or not, but considering much of the border and illegal crossings happen in Texas, and that is where Trump went to talk up his "crisis", that would seem to be a pretty important place to look.

As to assumptions that "native born criminals" are "anchor babies of illegals" is just plain racist and hateful. But honestly that pretty much sums up @Noahfeck posts in general- fear and hate. Rather sad.

And to those pointing out that 'all illegals break the law', be careful of throwing rocks while living in glass houses. I doubt there are many, if any, of us on this sight who don't occasionally speed, have rigs with a few violations (mudflaps, tire coverage etc come up often). Pretty safe to say we all break the law at some point.
Wow, you are very good at twisting words and pulling the racist card. There was no racist assumption here. He simply referred to a left-out statistic that exists, whether logged somewhere or not, that a portion of those "native born criminals" were likely native born of illegal immigrant parents which puts into question which pool of criminals they should fairly be put into to reach the overall statistic.

Pointing out that all illegals break the law is a 100% fact. They are here illegally, thus have broken a law. To compare that to a mudflap violation is ridiculous. If you want to compare something similar, you should probably use something like breaking and entering, or at least trespassing and using somebody's property without their permission. Yes, we all break some law in some way at some point, but you are really grasping at straws to compare us to illegals crossing the border.

@Houndoc Is it really that hard to understand that a wall will deter a large portion of illegal immigration which does contribute to a large amount of crime in this country? I totally understand the $$$ argument, but let's take that out of the equation, hypothetically, and do you honestly feel like a wall is useless? I have a hard time grasping the argument that a wall is useless and it won't help anything at all. The money part, sure. The fact that immigrants do play a positive role in our economy and cultural diversity so we need them, yes. But those who cross their arms and claim that it won't help, I tend to think they just hate Trump (which I also do understand why some people have a problem with him) and are just complaining about it because he wants it.

I am VERY interested to see how things play out after another 5 days go by after reading those articles that @Herzog linked. I can see funding for the wall not being an issue anymore if some fat is trimmed from the government employee pool.
 

mesha

By endurance we conquer
Location
A.F.
[QUOTE="Houndoc, post: 1113539, member: 1481"

By no means justifying gang membership or violence, but immigrant youth are certainly vulnerable to be recruited into gangs. Then they are deported back into countries they left as children with little to know support system there.
[/QUOTE]

I clipped out some of your statement because I really liked this part. Immigrant youth really are more susceptible to gang recruitment. Immigrant youth from any country and whether they come here legally or not have a hard time assimilating. I ran a program at the UofU for 3 years for refugee students and the rate that those kids got caught up in gang violence was astounding.

I appreciate the back and forth that is going on in this thread. I like reading and thinking about points from both sides of the wall. Thanks to those involved. I don’t have a ton to add to the commentary because my knowledge on immigration policy I not where it should be. I am learning a lot here.

Honest question, is there a wall/fence at the border between Mexico and other countries? Have walls been effective at curbing immigration in the past?
 

Houndoc

Registered User
Location
Grantsville
An assumption was made by a forum member that immigrants and their children must be guilty of high rates of crime (even going so far as to suggest the only reason statistics don't support that is they are better at not getting caught).

I will not apologize for calling that out as racism.

In the Trump era I have found it disheartening that many of the same people who correctly complain if all gun owners are held guilty by association for a criminal act are quick to paint immigrants and Hispanics as criminal based on the actions of a few.

That is wrong.
 

Jesser04

Well-Known Member
Location
Kaysville Utah
If illegal gun owners were a problem I don’t think the legal guns owners would be upset with arresting the illegal gun owners and taking there guns. Trump supporters just want the problem fixed their sick of pretending like there isn’t one. We have a immigration problem regardless of what chuck and Nancy want to say we have daca that needs a resolution all of this stuff needs to be handled and the time is now.
 
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pELYgroso

'Merica
Location
LEHI, UT
An assumption was made by a forum member that immigrants and their children must be guilty of high rates of crime (even going so far as to suggest the only reason statistics don't support that is they are better at not getting caught).

I will not apologize for calling that out as racism.

In the Trump era I have found it disheartening that many of the same people who correctly complain if all gun owners are held guilty by association for a criminal act are quick to paint immigrants and Hispanics as criminal based on the actions of a few.

That is wrong.

Key word that you seem to keep leaving out: "ILLEGAL" immigrants. I personally know plenty of illegal immigrants who are great people and work very hard, and I wish there was a better system to vet them and process their legal entry/stay/visas/whatever, and I don't think they should all be deported at once, but to stop (or drastically slow down) the influx of illegal entry is a good idea and will 100% help with growing crime and drug/people trafficking. I don't think any of us on the other side of this argument have a problem with immigrants, or immigration. It's the illegal part that so many, including yourself, love to leave out and ignore.
 

ID Bronco

Registered User
Location
Idaho Falls, ID
Houndoc said:
The saddest part of people fleeing central America because of gang violence is the gangs have their origins in the US.

As to assumptions that "native born criminals" are "anchor babies of illegals" is just plain racist and hateful. But honestly that pretty much sums up @Noahfeck posts in general- fear and hate. Rather sad.
__________________________________________________________

These two statements are telling for me. I see a pattern like this all the time with many Democrats on a national level, attack those who disagree, show some "perceived" indiscretion and then you can dismiss their ideas and arguments. It's handy, then they can move on and not face those thought processes.

Trump for instance: He's immoral therefore any action he takes, any policy he presents, any idea he comes up with is worthless. The joke with all of this nationally is that those who say that are totally unethical and to me immoral as well.

I don't understand your view Houndoc, but I'm sure we would get a long great in many other areas of our belief systems. I think you would find that to be true with Noafeck too. I find the term racist to be quite handy for some and try to define hateful. I don't ever wake up and think about who or what I hate, but I am sure someone could label me hateful for something I believe, even if many others wouldn't see it that way at all. It's too vague and therefore handy to toss around.
 

Herzog

somewhat damaged
Admin
Location
Wydaho
@ID Bronco - Houndoc is a good dude, I can tell he has a big heart from the times I've met him. This is just one of those things that different life experiences lead people to different views and sometimes it can get bull headed on both sides. I completely disagree with using the label of 'racist' to try to prove a point, especially in the context stated above... I don't see Noahfeck being racist at all, rather pointing out real issues and I feel like he's using sound logic for rebuttal. On that same note, I think they might be misinterpreting each-other which is really easy to do on a forum. This is why I never argue with the wife via text. :D
 

anderson750

I'm working on it Rose
Location
Price, Utah
Time to bring some humor into this thread. One of my employee's had these valentines cards made for his daughter to take to preschool.
16684.jpg
 

ID Bronco

Registered User
Location
Idaho Falls, ID
@ID Bronco - Houndoc is a good dude, I can tell he has a big heart from the times I've met him. This is just one of those things that different life experiences lead people to different views and sometimes it can get bull headed on both sides. I completely disagree with using the label of 'racist' to try to prove a point, especially in the context stated above... I don't see Noahfeck being racist at all, rather pointing out real issues and I feel like he's using sound logic for rebuttal. On that same note, I think they might be misinterpreting each-other which is really easy to do on a forum. This is why I never argue with the wife via text. :D

I totally agree with your summation of Houndoc, I tried to convey that. Again it's just a friendly debate, but it is important to all parties.
 

anderson750

I'm working on it Rose
Location
Price, Utah
As far as my POV on why the Democrats are refusing to even come to the table on this is that it is 100% positioning for the 2020 election and that they refuse to allow Trump to have any kind of victory.......even if it is good for the country. Both parties have done this, but it is always the Republicans who seem to fold under pressure. Why do people.....including myself like trump? I will tell you that it is not because I think he is a great person......I think the guy has a bunch of character flaws. It is because he is putting issues that are detrimental to the country at the forefront and attacking them and not putting up with the political game. Taxes, regulations, immigration, government over reach to name a few. He believes that more government is not the solution......just like millions of people across America. The less that gets done in DC, the more these guys fight, the more job security they seem to have.
 

Pike2350

Registered User
Location
Salt Lake City
I do find it funny how those that support Trump most likely acted the same way the people that oppose him in this thread when it came to Obama. They would be tearing him down and saying he's spreading hate/racism/etc. All while others would be defending him as "doing what's best for the country"

That's my big issue with both sides. They are generally so hypocritical aand refuse to admit it.

As for Trump not believing the government is not the solution....i himself don't think either party believes that. They both want to control the populace... just in different areas. They both spend tax money like drunken sailors. Id be all for Trumps tax cuts IF they came with actual cuts to government spending....but they never do. The deficit still grows, the debt still grows.... wash, rinse repeat.

I want a politician that says real stuff. " guess what, we have to RAISE taxes...across the board. We have to CUT spending...across the board" that's what needs to be done... the rest is just which crook gets to blow your money....on either green initiative/entitlements or a monster military/farm subsidies. Either way they're robbing you to find their pet projects.....stop thinking otherwise.
 

Herzog

somewhat damaged
Admin
Location
Wydaho
Trump cancels Pelosi's overseas PR trip:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/17/...JRWABtxx8qrsbX5_zYFqtmk7m0vl4DabPHJPRbC0P8St4

I guess the group leaving for the trip got the letter on their way to the airfield to get on the private jet. Some may find this to be a douche move. I don't disagree, but I find it hilarious.

It is fantastically hilarious. Master Troll in Chief. Thing is, did you ever ask yourself why they were going to Brussells and Egypt? There's no servicemen there that I'm aware of.
 

Noahfecks

El Destructo!
Nope, when you can no longer support your opinion with logic or fact, it's time to play the race card

tenor.gif


I get it, Houndoc has someone in his life who he cares about who is an immigrant, and for him it's a sacred cow. I am sure he is probably a good guy who is simply misinformed.

I would like to point out that I never said that illegals commit crimes at a higher rate. I did challenge a ridiculous statement that they committed crime at a lower rate. If anyone feels the statements I put forth are not based in fact, please feel free to provide facts to prove me wrong.

Start here, read and understand the methodology used, and how the specific inputs chosen play into the numbers.
https://cis.org/Report/Examination-US-Immigration-Policy-and-Serious-Crime

A republic cant stand if critical thinking falls
 

jackjoh

Jack - KC6NAR
Supporting Member
Location
Riverton, UT
Wow, you are very good at twisting words and pulling the racist card. There was no racist assumption here. He simply referred to a left-out statistic that exists, whether logged somewhere or not, that a portion of those "native born criminals" were likely native born of illegal immigrant parents which puts into question which pool of criminals they should fairly be put into to reach the overall statistic.

Pointing out that all illegals break the law is a 100% fact. They are here illegally, thus have broken a law. To compare that to a mudflap violation is ridiculous. If you want to compare something similar, you should probably use something like breaking and entering, or at least trespassing and using somebody's property without their permission. Yes, we all break some law in some way at some point, but you are really grasping at straws to compare us to illegals crossing the border.

@Houndoc Is it really that hard to understand that a wall will deter a large portion of illegal immigration which does contribute to a large amount of crime in this country? I totally understand the $$$ argument, but let's take that out of the equation, hypothetically, and do you honestly feel like a wall is useless? I have a hard time grasping the argument that a wall is useless and it won't help anything at all. The money part, sure. The fact that immigrants do play a positive role in our economy and cultural diversity so we need them, yes. But those who cross their arms and claim that it won't help, I tend to think they just hate Trump (which I also do understand why some people have a problem with him) and are just complaining about it because he wants it.

I am VERY interested to see how things play out after another 5 days go by after reading those articles that @Herzog linked. I can see funding for the wall not being an issue anymore if some fat is trimmed from the government employee pool.
"pELYgroso Has summed up the anti President Trump mind set but I have also appreciated some of the comments made by Hounddoc when they deal with facts and not emotions. Everyone that has commented on The Wall on this thread needs to be complemented and it makes me proud to be called a RME four wheeler. We have a problem nationwide changing this from an emotional discussion to a subjective one. I think everyone will agree that we need border security and Immigration policy changes. The so called wall/fence is an integral part of that. Lets hope that Congress comes to its senses before President Trump declares a national emergency.
 

Houndoc

Registered User
Location
Grantsville
Thanks to those who are trying to depersonalize the debate, something at times is hard to do. It is important to recognize we can have different views and still respect each other as people.

Funny though, how my differing view is because I am "misinformed", not an admission that we simply disagree. Or that I am Democrat. Neither is true.

We all do need to note that a debate stretching over weeks is ripe for mis-statements and misrepresetation of views.

To put my views on immigration in simple terms it is this:
1) Illegal immigration is best solved through fixing (not restricting) legal immigration. More people need a legal option.
2) Trump has stirred up unfounded fear of immigrants, legal and illegal, as part of his campaign stategy. That is morally wrong.
 
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