Upcoming SUWA Rally, maybe we should rally against their rally

[cruiseroutfit]

X2

x3. But show me where one of these Amendments was for us giving control of Federal land to to them and where they vetoed their own Supremacy Clause in said land. Beyond that what are we arguing?

 

[Skylinerider]

How in the world is allowing the State of Utah sell off what is currently public land in anyway better than allowing the feds to keep it somewhat public and accessible? Please Jack, JL, tell me how that is better? The proposal states that they will sell off parts of public land and apply the profit to the national debt. How is that better for our state or for our preferred form of recreation? Once I see a real proposal from the state that would keep lands public, allow recreation, grazing, energy, etc. I may take them seriously. The current proposal is so short on any detail it's like handing the state a blank check for our public lands saying do whatever the hell you want, we trust you. Well I don't trust them.

 

[jackjoh]

The people inhabiting this State do affirm and declare that they forever disclaim all right and title to the unappropriated public lands lying within the boundaries hereof, and to all lands lying within said limits owned or held by any Indian or Indian tribes, and that until the title thereto shall have been extinguished by the United States, the same shall be and remain subject to the disposition of the United States, and said Indian lands shall remain under the absolute jurisdiction and control of the Congress of the United States.".

Which means to me that the US government has the legal right to give the land back to the state. Nowhere does it say "in perpetuity" which did not even work for the Panama Canal. Also read what J L put up about what rights the federal government has versus the states.

We have seen what the federal government and groups like Suwa have done so I am ready to try something else.

I remember the $26,000 dollars that was given to Death Valley in 1968 to reopen Trail Canyon from Zabriski point and they declined to use it. Remember the 6200 plus miles of roads already closed here in Utah. I Remember four wheelers working with the state of California to keep Anza Borrego and Hungry Valley areas open
to some of the best four wheeling in the State. I personally think that the BLM etc. has been better here but I think the state would be better and the money would not have to be funneled through Washington.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

The people inhabiting this State do affirm and declare that they forever disclaim all right and title to the unappropriated public lands lying within the boundaries hereof, and to all lands lying within said limits owned or held by any Indian or Indian tribes, and that until the title thereto shall have been extinguished by the United States, the same shall be and remain subject to the disposition of the United States, and said Indian lands shall remain under the absolute jurisdiction and control of the Congress of the United States.".

Which means to me that the US government has the legal right to give the land back to the state. Nowhere does it say "in perpetuity" which did not even work for the Panama Canal. Also read what J L put up about what rights the federal government has versus the states.

Well Jack, the word "forever" is pretty synonymous with perpetuity

I get that the Federal government has the legal right to give back the land, they just don't have any form of obligation. They could give us back the State of Deseret or the Utah Territory too, about as much chance of that happening

 

[jackjoh]

To me it means the state can not legally get it back on its own but the government can. Time for bed, you guys have fun four wheeling as long as you can.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

To me it means the state can not legally get it back on its own but the government can...

Right, exactly what I have been arguing since day one. This isn't an either or scenario Jack, I'm not promoting for a blanket never support the State stance. Quite the opposite, I'd love to know how the State plans to fund said proposal and what lands they think would be appropriate to sell or lease. At least with Federal lands we know that a. nothing is happening quickly and b. the chances of it becoming private are very slim.

...Time for bed, you guys have fun four wheeling as long as you can.

Jack, it's not like I'm not still advocating for public lands... just not biting on the Fed to State hook, nothing personal but it seems like a 100% waste of limited human resources on behalf of motorized users. Activities like RMP/TMP plan involvement, stewardship, education and cooperative agreements with both state and federal activities are low hanging fruit and they are rotting on the ground.

 

[jackjoh]

Kurt, you sure make sense but I have been in the fight mode too long to sometimes stop and think things through. I have a long reply that I will have to put on word so I don't lose my train of thought and the data.

 

[scoutabout]

You have just told me that fighting to keep public lands public is a lost cause and I have wasted 46 years or that portion of it that I spent trying to keep roads open. Your motto is "Use it while you can" and let our grandchildren fend for themselves. I would rather deal with people I vote for within my state instead of the Washington bureaucracy.

You know I do have a "use it while you can" mentality, I've given up hope of what many people have been fighting for so many years. But I don't believe that those efforts have been wasted or shouldn't continue. As you do, I believe cooperative management and user involvement is the key to protecting access. I don't know if it's a lost cause, but it's a cause that I can't invest my own time into anymore. I have great respect and admiration for guys who have been involved as long as you have. We have so many great "crusaders" for the cause here in Utah, and you are all heroes of access in my opinion. It's a noble fight, but not for me anymore.

If some other agency or organization had diversified multiple public uses as its core value and a plan to manage the land for public benefit in perpetuity, I would encourage everyone to have an open mind. Since the state govts can't even sniff the budgets of the BLM and USFS or match the experience of these groups, I remain skeptical.

I suggest anyone who's interested in protecting motorized access and has the opportunity and time to work/volunteer at an administrative level with the USFS or BLM. Learn why land managers make the decisions that they do and how this vast system of federal land is intended to benefit the entire country, not just local residents.

 

[anderson750]

I don't know if it's a lost cause, but it's a cause that I can't invest my own time into anymore.

X2.......it does not seem like there is many new faces showing up to JOIN-PARTICIPATE-DONATE in the last couple of years.

 

[jackjoh]

1. I think apathy has taken over, there are so many people with money now that do not have to use their daily driver that the sport is not what it used to be. This is the reason I like Expedition Utah it reminds me of home.
2. We will never know if the State can do better unless we try. The question is can the Feds hold off the groups like Suwa? I think they have done a fair job but we have still lost 6500+ miles of roads in Utah.
3. The problem with the feds is that the BLM has to follow the interpretation of laws by whoever is in power at the time and they can change the laws anytime they have enough motivation to do so. Just look at how many times the definition of a road has changed.
4. We are losing too many good people (Paul Anderson and yourselves) because new ones are not stepping forward and some have more pressing matters to attend to so they do not carry out their duties.
5. There is too much bickering going on between groups that should be helping one another.
6. If the State takes over they might be able to run the areas using fees, sell some areas, leave some areas open, and close some areas. At least the people that would be making these changes would be people we vote into office and I do not believe they would be as susceptible to groups like Suwa.
7. The bottom line: Not enough people have had things taken away from them to cause them to see the danger. With groups like Suwa making a living off what they do they will never stop.
8. That brings up a thought, what if we give them 9 million acres if they will leave the state?

 

[cruiseroutfit]

...8. That brings up a thought, what if we give them 9 million acres if they will leave the state?

The Fed or SUWA?

 

[jackjoh]

The Fed or SUWA?

The fed already has it so it is Suwa.