Other Region Upcoming Trip: Rubicon Trail Lake Tahoe, CA Sept 5-8th 2012

[sixstringsteve]

Cool, I'll put you down.

This morning I've already begun spending money on hardware needed for this expedition.

Cool, what'd you get? I'm still worried that your rig isn't capable enough. I guess we'll see how it does on the shakedown runs. Prove me wrong, I'd love to have you tag along with our group if your rig can handle it.

 

[lhracing]

Steve, My son and I are looking into joining you on this one. I did the Rubiicon as a spotter about 10 years ago and this is one that I have wanted to take my so on.

 

[sixstringsteve]

Steve, My son and I are looking into joining you on this one. I did the Rubiicon as a spotter about 10 years ago and this is one that I have wanted to take my so on.

Great! I'll put you on the "on the fence" list. Let me know if anything changes.

 

[TurboMinivan]

Cool, what'd you get?

The Tuffy security enclosure. This will require the removal of the rear seat--no big loss as I never use it--and will give me the ability to securely carry most of the cargo I will need for this trip. It is an item I've wanted for some time; this trip has finally motivated me to buy it. Now that this purchase has been made, I've been eyeing various 12v fridges (such as an ARB) to buy next.

As for improving my vehicle's capability, there are two main modifications I am considering adding before the trip: one selectable locker (most likely an ARB) and a tummy tuck with an upgraded skid plate (which will probably require a small body lift). The locker ought to help me keep moving, and the tummy tuck should minimize my chances of getting high centered.

I'm still worried that your rig isn't capable enough.

I haven't forgotten about that, Steve, and it raises a number of emotions in me. First, what happened to our hobby? Decades ago, guys would take groups of showroom stock CJs and tackle virtually any terrain--including the Rubicon--and they usually managed to make it there and back again. Nowadays, the "common wisdom" says you need a dedicated rock buggy on 40" tires just to back out of your driveway. Seriously? What ever happened to the fun of a little challenge? Is the modern day object of a 4x4 trip to make every last obstacle as easy to overcome as a pebble on the street?

Don't get me wrong. Nobody wants to be that guy out on the trail. You know, the one who gets stuck on every obstacle and has to be towed or winched off each and every time. I don't want to be that guy, either. Now I freely admit that I've never run the Rubicon before... and I don't think anybody in this group has been on it, either, so we're all flying blind into this experience together.

Like you, I've tried to do some research as to what I'm getting myself into. In so doing, I've found things like this:

http://www.rubicon-trail.com/Rubicon/ot.html

So, you wanna bring your own truck?

OK

As long as you have a few essentials you are welcome to participate in one of my events and use your own 4x4.

Here is the ideal set up for the Rubicon:
short wheel base 4x4 (CJ, YJ, TJ, FJ)
35" tires
proper lift
80:1 crawl ratio
ARB lockers front & rear

Here is what's acceptable for the Rubicon:
short wheel base 4x4 (CJ, YJ, TJ, FJ)
31" tires
some lift
40:1 crawl ratio
some rear locker

Don't bring:
Full size long wheel base 4x4
a 4x4 with running boards
tires smaller than 31"

Having a (short wheelbase) TJ on 31s with 2" lift and a 38.9:1 crawl ratio, I meet most of his requirements as I sit. Once I add in the locker, I will meet all of them.

Here is another opinion:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=418177

Our recommendations for High Sierra trail equipment are:
1. No less then a 31" tire for short wheelbase, or 33" for long wheelbase
2. Rocker protection
3. Heavy duty skid plates
4. Heavy duty bumpers, or a willingness to kiss the stock ones g'bye
5. Secure tow points
6. Lead vehicle with a winch
7. CB radio and first aid kit
8. GPS optional but helpful
9. Trail map or Rubicon guide book
10. Low gears or 4.1 transfer case very nice to have
The Trail Leader ideally should have run the trail once before. (Trust me, on a hard trail like this things go smoother for a group)
__________________
Scott Johnston
Current Rubicon Trail Foundation President 2011-2012

As I sit, I meet requirements 1-5, 7 and 8. According to him, maybe I ought to do a 4:1 low range conversion rather than a tummy tuck. But other than that, he seems to feel I have at least a decent chance of completing the trail. (Oh, sure, I may have to bypass a few of the insane obstacles... but I'm not too proud to do so.)

Long story short, I really want to go on this trip. As the one who began the thread about it last fall, I also feel morally obligated to attend. Even still, I want to go in order to (a) have a good time and (b) be a part of everyone else having a good time. The above two quotes along with other anecdotal evidence lead me to believe I can actually run the trail in my vehicle. If I genuinely thought I couldn't make it, I wouldn't take it. But, hey, maybe I'm completely off my rocker.

If my being there is going to ruin someone else's enjoyment of the trip, please keep the conversation going and say so now.

 

[Bart]

that last video definitely show it more washed out than the others. Good video. I'm pumped for this trip.

I think radiator rapids is a really tough spot on constrictor. I definitely don't want a winch-fest. We'll do some pre-runs up hanging tree and constrictor before then.

is it safe to assume that hanging tree and the rubicon are the same difficulty level? Or is hanging tree harder? I know that the rubi has gnarly places, I'm just talking about the trail, taking all bypasses.

Haven't been on the Rubi in 12 years, but I think I can safely say that Hanging Tree is tougher than the Rubi. The Rubi can be run with one locker and lots of friends that like to stack rocks. I would strongly recommend sliders and skids.

Dempsey, as to your comment about needing a buggy on 40s, I believe that with the progression of the sport has grown so much that harder trails are needed to challenge built rigs. 98% of Moab is boring in a buggy. Back in the early days no one would have dreamed of running Coyote or Upper Helldorado. I think a rear locker and skids will let you enjoy the trip.

 

[sixstringsteve]

Turbo, I really like your style, I'll wheel with you any day. I love your enthusiasm, your persistence, and your passion for this sport. If we haven't met (I can't remember) I really look forward to meeting you in person; you're just the type of person I like to wheel with. If you've ever been to my presentation at the training day, I talk all about wheeling what you've got without feeling like you have to get a "lift" or "locker" just to wheel. In fact, each of my builds has gotten progressively smaller because the big rigs aren't as much fun to me on the trails around here. So I totally resonate with the fact that you don't need 40" tires to have fun.


Here's a little background from where I'm at. Even though I love wheeling and I've been on quite a few trails, I'm a beginner trail leader. I've led about 10 trails now, and I'm still learning a lot about how to be a better trail leader. My priorities as a trail leader are:

1) SAFETY: make sure (to the best of my ability) that everyone is safe and we are prepared for emergencies
2) Route: make proper route plans (maps, routes, schedules, communication, etc)
3) Pace: keep the group flowing through the trail at a good pace, not leaving anyone behind
4) Fun: plan well enough that everyone is able to have a lot of fun


Usually, when I run a trail that I've never run before, my biggest unknown variable is pace. I get reports of some people running the Rubicon in a day, and others saying to take at least 3-4 days to run it. There are so many variables that affect the pace of a group. We recently took 10+ rigs through a 3-day Hole in the Rock trail trip, and we had a lot of experienced wheelers, no breakage, and great group dynamics. We were very lucky with our pace, because I don't feel that we went much slower than if we'd just had 3-4 rigs.

I'm guessing we'll end up with about 10 rigs on this trip (based on the PMs and conversations I'm having with my friends). My biggest concern right now is route finding (I could sure use some help picking a route and getting the maps and everything), and my next biggest concern is pace. I'm thinking I may want to extend the trip a day so we have an extra day on the trail with time for short hikes.

Turbo, I have no doubts that we could get your rig through the Rubicon. We'll have winches and tow straps; we could drag just about any rig through the trail. I also believe that your rig, with the right driver, could complete the Rubicon without slowing us down. I have no clue how experienced of a driver you are. Just because person X took your rig through it does not mean person Y can. Now, I'm not king of the Rubicon. Nobody needs my permission to run the trail. I have never run it, and you've obviously done your research about minimum vehicle requirements. However, minimum vehicle requirements for a trail are often different from minimum vehicle requirements for a group. My concern is not that you won't make it, my concern is getting the group of 5-10 rigs through the Rubicon at a good pace without having to wait up for a crippled or ill-prepared rig (not singling you out, I'm talking any rig). That's why we're going on the shakedown runs. If you lag behind on the shakedown runs, you'll probably lag behind on the Rubicon.

Turbo, I'll let you make the call if you feel that you can hang with the group without being "that guy." I feel the responsibility to get 5-10 rigs through at a good pace. Even with everyone on 37's, 5-10 rigs takes a lot longer to get through the trail than 2 rigs. All the little hickups really add up over the course of the day. I really hope you can make it and hang with the group. However, I don't know your driving experience so I can't make a call one way or the other. The editors of jeep mag can make it through cuz they're expert drivers. I have no clue where you stand and what to expect, so the shakedown runs will help us get a better feel for the driver and rig preparations for this trip. Once again, I'll let you make the decision.


If someone else wants to lead this trail, go for it. I would love to not have to plan all the details.

 

[Sawtooth]

Not that it matters but I am also tired of hearing about endless mods and how people don't meet requirements.What a bunch of crap.It should be about going out and having a good time.If it take s a little longer so be it.And yes I have run the Ruby.

 

[midog]

Just curious if anyone is planning to trailer their rig for this trip, or would I be the only one?

If anyone has a 2 -3 car hauler trailer and is planning on going, I would love to “partner up” with you and help with gas and all that.

 

[sixstringsteve]

Here are the pre-running trails I'm thinking of. Nobody is required to do any of these, they're just opportunities to work out any kinks before we travel 600 miles to the trailhead.

- overnighter up Mineral Basin (August)
- Rattlesnake/Constrictor (early July)
- Hanging Tree Trail (late July)

 

[TurboMinivan]

If we haven't met (I can't remember)

We have, though you are completely forgiven for not remembering since it was on the infamous Snakes noob night run when there were 50+ rigs in attendance.

If you've ever been to my presentation at the training day

Sadly, I have not. This isn't due to lack of desire; my career (car sales) doesn't afford me much free time, particularly on weekends. (However, I have made it clear to my boss that I will be using vacation time for this Rubicon trip!)

In fact, each of my builds has gotten progressively smaller

Last time I saw you, you had just completed building that 4dr Sidekick.

My priorities as a trail leader are:

And I could not agree more. I don't feel like I'm being attacked; indeed, I know exactly where you are coming from even though I've never led a group on the same level as you are about to do. I've organized small groups of essentially stock rigs for afternoon trips into AF canyon, but that is all. (I don't feel this qualifies me as a good trail leader by any stretch of the imagination, though it does make me appreciate what you are doing.)

I'm thinking I may want to extend the trip a day so we have an extra day on the trail with time for short hikes.

Personally, I have no problem using the extra day (Sunday) and making this a five-day expedition.

I have no clue how experienced of a driver you are.

This is a valid concern for the group leader in particular, and it's a fair question in general. It certainly deserves a bit of an answer.

I bought my first Jeep back in December 1998 (an '88 XJ):

Since that time I've owned five different TJs. I've wheeled each of them all over Utah county. I have yet to drive my own vehicle on any trails in Moab--the only time I went to Moab was right before I bought my XJ, so I was primarily a passenger--but that's also on my to-do list. I've taken my current Jeep on numerous runs to Forest Lake, and I began a trip to Mineral Basin but one of my friends wanted to turn around in the rock garden so I didn't get all the way there (though I have been there in other Jeeps of my past). Rattlesnake is a non-issue, of course; I've run Constrictor in my current Wrangler up to Radiator Rapids but I turned around there and headed back out. I have run Constrictor completely--including winching myself up the waterfall--in a former TJ (on 35" tires):

I am also familiar with Little Moab, having been there a great many times. Here I am driving my current TJ over the lesser of the two big breakover points:

So that's a little of my background. Am I the most experienced driver on this forum? Certainly not. On the other hand, I'm not exactly a noob, either. I have a decent amount of Jeeping experience... and a fair bit of nerve, as well.

What else do you need/want to know?

That's why we're going on the shakedown runs.

I am all for the shakedown runs, not only to test the rig/setup but also to test my comfort/ability with the camping part of it. Last time I actually went camping, I was a teenager and Ronald Reagan was in office.

 

[sixstringsteve]

Ah, that gives me some good info. It sounds like you'll be fine, I'm not worried. I've got a few friends who consider themselves "experienced" wheelers who have been in 4l a total of one time. So that gives me a better idea.

How does your limited slip do? I've only seen one limited slip that actually limited slip (Sami's Montero), the rest I've wheeled with behaved just like an open diff. Looking forward to a shakedown run with ya. I'll try to incorporate as much camping into those trips as possible, since stowing gear and learning what you do and don't need to bring is the toughest part about these multi-day trips.

 

[clfrnacwby]

I'll try to incorporate as much camping into those trips as possible, since stowing gear and learning what you do and don't need to bring is the toughest part about these multi-day trips.

Great idea. Any place to camp near Hanging Tree?

 

[sixstringsteve]

Great idea. Any place to camp near Hanging Tree?

I'd really like to camp in Manti. One day I'll live there. Fairview Canyon is another option.

 

[TurboMinivan]

I've got a few friends who consider themselves "experienced" wheelers who have been in 4l a total of one time. So that gives me a better idea.

Oh, no wonder you were worried.

How does your limited slip do?

About as good as a brand new Trac-Lok can do... which isn't all that great. Okay, it isn't entirely useless; when I apply a generous amount of parking brake, I can get it to "lock up" and help get me moving again. Having had a genuine locker in the past, I know it is far inferior... and that's why I will install one locker before this trip. (I'm stuck trying to decide front or rear--there are arguments for and against each axle.)

stowing gear and learning what you do and don't need to bring is the toughest part about these multi-day trips.

I don't doubt it.

On a related note, I am very excited about running Hanging Tree. I have been quite eager to run that trail since I first heard about it earlier this year.

 

[sixstringsteve]

On a related note, I am very excited about running Hanging Tree. I have been quite eager to run that trail since I first heard about it earlier this year.

You'll definitely want a locker installed before we do Hanging Tree. It's a really fun trail with lots of potential for damage.

 

[TJDukit]

You'll definitely want a locker installed before we do Hanging Tree. It's a really fun trail with lots of potential for damage.

I love potential for body damage

 

[gorillaxj]

looks like its going to be a good trip! I wish I had the cards to jump in on this... however I will have to plan to do the Rubicon next year (fingers crossed)

(I'm stuck trying to decide front or rear--there are arguments for and against each axle.)

My advice would be to lock the diff thats open if you have a LSD, LSD's aren't comparable to a locker, but they are better then an open diff IMO. giving you a locker and semi open. Back on topic

All this info is really helpful in getting my game plan ready. Thanks for being so open with all the trip info!

 

[sixstringsteve]

I'd be happy to share whatever I find Gorilla. I'm still gathering info about the trail (maps, gps, staging areas, etc).

 

[TurboMinivan]

My advice would be to lock the diff thats open

That sure makes sense, at least on the surface. Here is the whole picture. I currently have the Trac-Lok in the rear Dana44 and a pegleg Dana30 front with 3.73 axle gears. Ultimately, I intend to have lockers front and rear; for budgetary reasons, I will only install one at the present time. Which axle to choose?

Reasons to lock the front Dana30 first:
1) my current carrier will be retained when I (eventually) regear, so the locker won't need to be replaced

Reasons not to lock the front Dana30 first:
1) everybody says you're supposed to lock the rear before the front


Reasons to lock the rear Dana44 first:
1) it's a stronger axle than the front one
2) no change in turning radius with this locker engaged

Reasons not to lock the rear Dana44 first:
1) regearing will require a new carrier (unless I find a set of "thick" gears in the correct ratio)
2) I have a functional limited slip in there now


So that's my quandary. What to do? What to do?

 

[sixstringsteve]

my last rig was locked front and open rear, and I felt it climbed better than my rigs that are locked rear and open front. :thumbs: