Utah bill of sale - seller responsibility?

[Johnny Quest]

Anyone else received one of these? I sold the truck in question a year or so ago, and this is now the 2nd request for this info. My take is that they’re trying to pin the buyer for not paying full taxes on the truck. I don't know the guy, but I ain’t no snitch either. I ignored the first request, but they’re being pretty adamant.

 

[Tonkaman]

Anyone else received one of these? I sold the truck in question a year or so ago, and this is now the 2nd request for this info. My take is that they’re trying to pin the buyer for not paying full taxes on the truck. I don't know the guy, but I ain’t no snitch either. I ignored the first request, but they’re being pretty adamant.

View attachment 176092

Never seen that before.

That explains how the state found out I under paid sales tax on my van though. That snitch…

 

[Kevin B.]

Anyone else received one of these? I sold the truck in question a year or so ago, and this is now the 2nd request for this info. My take is that they’re trying to pin the buyer for not paying full taxes on the truck. I don't know the guy, but I ain’t no snitch either. I ignored the first request, but they’re being pretty adamant.

View attachment 176092

I haven't heard anything about a bill of sale being required. But I also think that if snitching gets the Utah State Tax Commission out of my mailbox, I'm gonna snitch.

 

[jeeper]

I would send a simple response saying that it was a year ago and you don’t remember the details and won’t be signing a bill of sale.

 

[Greg]

I would respond by asking for a detailed, itemized report of where all your tax money went first, then you'll play ball.

Fawk the IRS and the state tax commission! 🖕

 

[Herzog]

Pay close attention to the terminology in that letter.

I would respond politely stating that no records have been kept as the title signing acts as the bill of sale and no bill of sale is legally required. (At least that’s how I remember it in Utah. Has any legislation recently passed that changes this fact?)

Responding to the letter is considered remaining in good faith. State that you do not have the information they are “requesting” (ie, you are not obligated by law). I would personally tell them to get stuffed.

*not legal advice, I’m not a lawyer*

 

[Herzog]

https://dmv.utah.gov/buying-selling/responsibilities

No mention of it being “required”

 

[Tebbsjeep]

Do you guys report to the DMV when you sell a vehicle?

 

[johngottfredson]

Tell them you lost the records in a boating accident

 

[Trate D]

I received one after I sold a motorcycle a few years ago. I just replied that I no longer have knowledge of the amount I sold it for. As @Herzog said in Utah the title trumps a bill of sale and that’s all that’s required.

 

[mbryson]

Do you guys report to the DMV when you sell a vehicle?

I have started doing that. I sold a trailer that skipped paying a toll when crossing a bridge into NYC. I received a $400 fine from the Port Authority.

 

[moab_cj5]

Do you guys report to the DMV when you sell a vehicle?

No but I keep the license plates off every vehicle I sell.

 

[The_Lobbster]

Emil be like:

 

[The_Lobbster]

I'm assuming you got title jumped though? If you sold it a year ago, why are they just now trying to find info?

Utah titles are nice though because they have the spot for the sale price right on the back. The DMV told me that you don't need an external bos due to having that right on it. I always conveniently fill that out in pen for the buyer so they can't fudge the numbers and cause a snafu like you're experiencing.

My dad got title jumped, and he was facing a bit of legal trouble for it, as the original seller. I believe state law requires you to make sure the title is signed into somebody elses name, it can't be left open. I flat out refuse to sign the sellers portion unless the buyer has filled out all their info, and signed it as well.

 

[Gravy]

"Tax Specialist" tells me all I need to know.

Also that guy probably sucks to talk to at parties.

 

[TurboMinivan]

My take is that they’re trying to pin the buyer for not paying full taxes on the truck.

I'm assuming you got title jumped though? If you sold it a year ago, why are they just now trying to find info?

Curiosity being what it is, I decided to run a title check on the VIN in question. You know, just for fun.

It looks like the OP registered the truck on 8/10/2021 and renewed the registration the following July. After that, a purchase was reported on 9/11/2023 and a new title (and presumably also a new registration) was issued to a Koosharem address on 9/21/2023. This must have been our friend Emil.

Here's where it gets fun (IMO): just a few months later on 2/8/2024 another new purchase was reported. This new owner also registered the truck in Koosharem. This person seems to be using the truck, because they took it in to LHM Dodge for an oil change and tire rotation on 8/1/2024 (at 182,220 miles).

Did Emil do something shady here?

 

[rholbrook]

The State Tax Commission is hitting dealers hard right now. Any trailer we sale we have to basically prove that it when out of state, especially if it was to an LLC in Montana. We have to get all documents related to an out of state sale, including copy of the drivers license of the person picking it up, copy of the form of payment proving that it is an out of state check and then we have to provide that the Tax Commission. I asked the officer assigned to us if they were going after these guys and he told me yes and not to relay that message on. He said they have one guy that gets a new Porsche about every few months and they will be going after him for around $6M in taxes and penalties. If it is going to spend its days on Utah roads, they need to pay Utah taxes on it. Exact words from him and they have hired a staff to do all the tracking on these people. A friend told me to tell you that if you register in Montana, do not buy the vehicle or trailer in the great State of Utah. We had to go pull the records of sales for about 50 deals in 2022 about 2 months ago. I personally believe that they are going back to all the sales tax exempt forms that the buyer has to fill sign and looking for LLCs. About 1/3 of our sales are out of state. Buy it in Idaho or somewhere else where that paperwork never comes in to Utah. Just passing that along. The LLC attorney's in MT do tell you what to say when you get pulled over but will they bail you out of the taxes, fees and penalties you will be charged when they finally catch up to you?

 

[Herzog]

The State Tax Commission is hitting dealers hard right now. Any trailer we sale we have to basically prove that it when out of state, especially if it was to an LLC in Montana. We have to get all documents related to an out of state sale, including copy of the drivers license of the person picking it up, copy of the form of payment proving that it is an out of state check and then we have to provide that the Tax Commission. I asked the officer assigned to us if they were going after these guys and he told me yes and not to relay that message on. He said they have one guy that gets a new Porsche about every few months and they will be going after him for around $6M in taxes and penalties. If it is going to spend its days on Utah roads, they need to pay Utah taxes on it. Exact words from him and they have hired a staff to do all the tracking on these people. A friend told me to tell you that if you register in Montana, do not buy the vehicle or trailer in the great State of Utah. We had to go pull the records of sales for about 50 deals in 2022 about 2 months ago. I personally believe that they are going back to all the sales tax exempt forms that the buyer has to fill sign and looking for LLCs. About 1/3 of our sales are out of state. Buy it in Idaho or somewhere else where that paperwork never comes in to Utah. Just passing that along. The LLC attorney's in MT do tell you what to say when you get pulled over but will they bail you out of the taxes, fees and penalties you will be charged when they finally catch up to you?

The state using tax dollars to collect more tax dollars...

 

[Johnny Quest]

Don’t believe we got title jumped, as I never Had the title; I still had a loan out on the truck when we sold it. We went to my bank, and finished the deal there. I believe they paid in full, and would assume they were sent the new title with their info at that time.

 

[anderson750]

The State Tax Commission is hitting dealers hard right now. Any trailer we sale we have to basically prove that it when out of state, especially if it was to an LLC in Montana. We have to get all documents related to an out of state sale, including copy of the drivers license of the person picking it up, copy of the form of payment proving that it is an out of state check and then we have to provide that the Tax Commission. I asked the officer assigned to us if they were going after these guys and he told me yes and not to relay that message on. He said they have one guy that gets a new Porsche about every few months and they will be going after him for around $6M in taxes and penalties. If it is going to spend its days on Utah roads, they need to pay Utah taxes on it. Exact words from him and they have hired a staff to do all the tracking on these people. A friend told me to tell you that if you register in Montana, do not buy the vehicle or trailer in the great State of Utah. We had to go pull the records of sales for about 50 deals in 2022 about 2 months ago. I personally believe that they are going back to all the sales tax exempt forms that the buyer has to fill sign and looking for LLCs. About 1/3 of our sales are out of state. Buy it in Idaho or somewhere else where that paperwork never comes in to Utah. Just passing that along. The LLC attorney's in MT do tell you what to say when you get pulled over but will they bail you out of the taxes, fees and penalties you will be charged when they finally catch up to you?

Can they track it if it was a private sale?