Vouchers

[Rusted]

Interesting that with such low school spending that the ACT scores for Utah are always higher than the national average. Tell us that Utah is doing something better / more efficient than other states

http://www.act.org/news/data/07/states.html

 

[Cherokeester]

Interesting that with such low school spending that the ACT scores for Utah are always higher than the national average. Tell us that Utah is doing something better / more efficient than other states

http://www.act.org/news/data/07/states.html

That is interesting, if you look closely not everyone takes the ACT. Some of those states only have 9 percent taking the test. Colorado it is mandatory, hence a way lower score. Utah is 70 percent.

 

[spencurai]

I never said the system failed me...I beat the system and got a good education from a crap system. I went to school and learned how to learn. I got a good education from public schools but I am afraid I am part of a very small contingent of people that did. I spent the first three years of high school in ogden city school district, I then spent my senior year in a weber county school district school and I learned more in that final year than all three previous because I changed my attitude and decided to get something out of my experience.

I believe accountability is THE MAIN concern here. Parents should be held accountable for sending children to school ready to learn and schools should be held accountable to MAKE SURE those kids get an education. Accountability is the PROBLEM here...not money, not venue, not uniforms, it's accountability!

Curt if you piss off your customers at your business they stop coming to you. If they get bad parts, or bad advice, or unfair pricing then they stop coming to you and go to a competitor that will treat them right and give them what they expect. You are held accountable to deliver on a promise or face the consequences! Public schools and their unions are NOT held accountable for the performance of their teachers and neither are those college professors you seem to try to leverage as an example of how a paid education is actually worse...its called tenure! If you get enough tenure you cannot be fired and therefore your ability to be held accountable for doing a poor teaching job disappears.

College professors on the whole unless they are adjunct professors are near untouchable and can get away with teaching poorly because it is not a customer service based industry and neither are public K-12 schools. Teachers show up for work and have the option of not doing their job and facing little or no repercussions for doing a poor job.

Now I need not look any further than the little scumbag kid next to me at the stoplight bumping the latest consumerist rap music with his 16 year old girlfriend and child in the backseat to know that the public education system along with the parenting system are not doing their jobs!

If the dumb broad at the gas station can't make change when her adding machine breaks, I know the public education system is broken.

If I talk to a girl and ask her what the last book she read was and receive a blank stare because she hadn't read a book since she was in grade school, I know the public education system is broken.

At the end of the day we are all responsible for out own lives. We are responsible for getting the most out of our lives and if we don't teach our children how to learn in whatever schooling they are placed then we have failed. Public education is a hostile place for learning...but it can be done.

Remember....at the end of the day society still needs people to run the register at the McDonalds and mop the floor at the Wal-Mart so don't study too hard kiddies!

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Interesting Kurt. So all the students in this article failed themselves.

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695224084,00.html

I guess I'm not seeing your point... kids that fail and drop out don't take tests . While it said our test scores are lower then the norm, they were still above the national norm. They were low when compared to similar demographics, a skewed test parameter IMO.

For every article like it, there is one against it... when were your kids in school??? 2003 by chance:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_20031114/ai_n11422692/print

2004??
http://www.schools.utah.gov/eval/Documents/IOWA_NRT_Score_Rep_01-04.pdf

 

[Rusted]

Searching for more data here

http://u-pass.schools.utah.gov

That is the states "report card" on schools. I compared Hillcrest High (dear and true to my heart) against Lehi High. I went back to the 2003-2004 school year since the latest data is not available.

I found it interesting that the ACT scores for Lehi were lower than the state average; some of the other numbers seemed lower. I only did a small sample, but is it possible that the school or district are struggling there? Get a bad manager in a company and the company can struggle. Get a bad principal in a school or a bad school district leader and the same things can happen.

 

[Cherokeester]

I guess I'm not seeing your point... kids that fail and drop out don't take tests

Not true if you live in Colorado.

 

[Cherokeester]

Searching for more data here

http://u-pass.schools.utah.gov

That is the states "report card" on schools. I compared Hillcrest High (dear and true to my heart) against Lehi High. I went back to the 2003-2004 school year since the latest data is not available.

I found it interesting that the ACT scores for Lehi were lower than the state average; some of the other numbers seemed lower. I only did a small sample, but is it possible that the school or district are struggling there? Get a bad manager in a company and the company can struggle. Get a bad principal in a school or a bad school district leader and the same things can happen.

I agree, you certainly have to look at it on a local level.

 

[Cherokeester]

I never said the system failed me...I beat the system and got a good education from a crap system. I went to school and learned how to learn. I got a good education from public schools but I am afraid I am part of a very small contingent of people that did. I spent the first three years of high school in ogden city school district, I then spent my senior year in a weber county school district school and I learned more in that final year than all three previous because I changed my attitude and decided to get something out of my experience.

I believe accountability is THE MAIN concern here. Parents should be held accountable for sending children to school ready to learn and schools should be held accountable to MAKE SURE those kids get an education. Accountability is the PROBLEM here...not money, not venue, not uniforms, it's accountability!

Curt if you piss off your customers at your business they stop coming to you. If they get bad parts, or bad advice, or unfair pricing then they stop coming to you and go to a competitor that will treat them right and give them what they expect. You are held accountable to deliver on a promise or face the consequences! Public schools and their unions are NOT held accountable for the performance of their teachers and neither are those college professors you seem to try to leverage as an example of how a paid education is actually worse...its called tenure! If you get enough tenure you cannot be fired and therefore your ability to be held accountable for doing a poor teaching job disappears.

College professors on the whole unless they are adjunct professors are near untouchable and can get away with teaching poorly because it is not a customer service based industry and neither are public K-12 schools. Teachers show up for work and have the option of not doing their job and facing little or no repercussions for doing a poor job.

Now I need not look any further than the little scumbag kid next to me at the stoplight bumping the latest consumerist rap music with his 16 year old girlfriend and child in the backseat to know that the public education system along with the parenting system are not doing their jobs!

If the dumb broad at the gas station can't make change when her adding machine breaks, I know the public education system is broken.

If I talk to a girl and ask her what the last book she read was and receive a blank stare because she hadn't read a book since she was in grade school, I know the public education system is broken.

At the end of the day we are all responsible for out own lives. We are responsible for getting the most out of our lives and if we don't teach our children how to learn in whatever schooling they are placed then we have failed. Public education is a hostile place for learning...but it can be done.

Remember....at the end of the day society still needs people to run the register at the McDonalds and mop the floor at the Wal-Mart so don't study too hard kiddies!

Well said brother.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

... I am not blaming it entirely on public schools, but we can't be so nieve and say we are just failing ourselves, that is ludicrous.

If 30-40% of kids were failing & dropping out... I say, sure its the school. But when 12% of Utah schools kids are dropping out... its hard to say what would help them. Consider the majority of those would likely drop out if their parents when to school everyday, it just wasn't meant to be for those kids and society has a place for them. Not the end of the world by anymeans, plenty of dropouts become millionaires.

Another article:
Utah Girls Dropout Rate Lowest in Nation
October 31st, 2007 @ 12:34pm
Mary Richards, KSL Newsradio

Utah girls are more likely to get their high school diploma than girls in any other state in the nation.

The National Women's Law Center released a report yesterday stating Utah has a 12 percent dropout rate for girls.

"This is particularly good news for a state where we have rising diversity issues as well as better than a third of our student body come from low-income families," Mark Peterson with the State Office of Education said.

Utah officials say this state has unique programs for teen mothers and dropout prevention that help, but the numbers could still be better.

 

[Rusted]

That is interesting, if you look closely not everyone takes the ACT. Some of those states only have 9 percent taking the test. Colorado it is mandatory, hence a way lower score. Utah is 70 percent.

Yes. A higher number tested would bring the scores lower. In states where it is not requred only the kids working to get into college would take them, and the struggling kids would never do it, so that would lean their average score higher than what it really would be.

Notice there are only 4 states that have > 70% tested that have higher scores that Utah? That would tell me that if you were to take everything into concideration Utah does very well compared to the national average

 

[cruiseroutfit]

I...If I talk to a girl and ask her what the last book she read was and receive a blank stare because she hadn't read a book since she was in grade school, I know the public education system is broken.

Funny, she comes from a state with the highest graduation rate amongst girls her age. How is public education broke again? All you have shown me is that your children and the kids you guys drive next to?? are the same kids that would likely not suceed in any other state, and until they are forced to by their parents, they likely never will. Just because a young couple has a kid doesn't mean they can't get an education, in fact they likely have access to a better education! Teen mom schools, scholarship and grant opportunities for yound mothers, etc... They failed themselves!

Remember....at the end of the day society still needs people to run the register at the McDonalds and mop the floor at the Wal-Mart so don't study too hard kiddies!

Absolutely! And thats why some don't take advantage of education and opportunities... they don't have too. I have no ill towards them, it was their decision. Takes all kinds to make the world go round.

 

[Cherokeester]

I don't mean to come across as rude, but honestly your not convincing me public schools fail, quite the opposite in fact.

You asked if someone had a bad or negative experience with public schools, I answered. I am not trying to "convince" you of anything.

And BTW their mom has an ME degree from the U just like you.

 

[Herzog]

I've been lurking in these threads a little bit. I came from rural Utah schools and I feel like I got a fairly good education. Could have been a mixture of small class sizes and many other factors.

I have no idea what goes on in the schools up here, but my first reaction is to keep my kid out of these schools. I've been listening and reading openly and I've come to the conclusion that both sides have very valid points. Maybe the problem isn't so much one side or the other, but a mixture of both? It's good to hear that people are getting more involved with the issues, but let's not just fix the system so parents can be more lazy.

Either way, if there is a problem or not... public education effects everybody in the end, IMO.

 

[GOAT]

Ironic that a state that prides itself on the value of children and family, doesn't pay teachers and police officers squat.

Glad I don't need either

 

[cruiseroutfit]

...And BTW their mom has an ME degree from the U just like you.

I know she does...

I guess I wasn't trying to be convinced, just as you wern't trying to convince... we can agree to disagree at that. I really am trying to understand both sides of the fence, I just don't get it...

I had two other brothers that attended the same schools as I did, yet they struggled from day one... struggled! My mother was there like a Nazi over them, Sylvan learning center, weekly progress reports from teachers, she prodded those two like cows. In the end they both graduated... a feat I'm still amazed at this day. They seriously worked harder at getting out of homework, then they would have actually doing it? I end up at the same schools and required very little involvement from my mother (other than countless behavior/suspension issues ). Many of the same teachers, same classes, just a different mindset and effort??

 

[Cherokeester]

Some kids struggle in the same environment no doubt about that. Not all people are made for higher education. Vouchers is still a very hot issue even though it got voted down. I am happier that the state education system is probably on top of the list for attention even though my kids are all grown up. That is one good thing about all this.

 

[Cherokeester]

Mental note to self, don't mention vouchers around Kurt at next wheeling event.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Mental note to self, don't mention vouchers around Kurt at next wheeling event.

Oh come on You know I'm a civil guy and always up for a good conversation Tacoma and I argued about vouchers and education in general for hours the other day and then sat next to eachother at dinner and didn't even once attempt to choke the other My wife told me I couldn't talk about vouchers with my FIL the other night, as we end up arguing for hours about it (and still remain good freinds). I've learned alot about both sides through discussion

 

[greenjeep]

I agree with Kurt, I see it everyday. Kids fail because they don't work. I lecture/teach the same way to all my students, and I'm more than happy to give extra help if it's needed, and yet in one class I have a girl with a 98.9% and another with a 13%. How is that my fault. And more importantly to this discussion, how would vouchers have changed that?

Is public education perfect, of course not, it needs serious attention, but my main argument is that the voucher system would not have made public education better.

 

[Cody]

I believe accountability is THE MAIN concern here. Parents should be held accountable for sending children to school ready to learn and schools should be held accountable to MAKE SURE those kids get an education. Accountability is the PROBLEM here...not money, not venue, not uniforms, it's accountability!

I agree. Self accountability. Find me someone who failed school, has a kid at 16, that can't make change if the machine breaks, etc etc. Find me someone like that who wishes they had studied less in school.

If 30-40% of kids were failing & dropping out... I say, sure its the school. But when 12% of Utah schools kids are dropping out... its hard to say what would help them. Consider the majority of those would likely drop out if their parents when to school everyday, it just wasn't meant to be for those kids and society has a place for them. Not the end of the world by anymeans, plenty of dropouts become millionaires.

I went to Granite. Opening enrollment was a little under 1100 students. Enrollment on the final day of school was a little under 800. I still feel like I received an excellent education. I consider myself a different egg because I somehow have always felt motivated internally to succeed. My parents haven't seen a report card of mine since 8th grade--and didn't really know what I studied in College until I was about to graduate. I guess my point is that some kids don't need constant parental/teacher supervision and guidance to succeed in school--and some do. Case in point is Kurt's brothers.

I am thankful I refused to go to private school. Some teachers--who didn't believe in the public school system--tried to push me there. for some kids maybe it's better. Kids that need a little extra attention or maybe need a more custom learning experience developed by their teachers and parents. Others would rebel from that. I think it's hard to say which child will succeed in which situation, but in general I think public schools teach more real-life than private. Learning how to learn is what school is about and those lessons begin early.

Also, another example. I went to an east side Jr. High. 90% of the kids from my Jr. High went to Olympus, and a small group of us went to Granite. The teachers, funding, etc etc are all "better" at Olympus. It's so fiercely competitive to get into the honors program and very work intensive. I applied for the program at Oly--and barely made it and would have had a ton of work to do to stay in the program. I went to Granite and flourished because of the opportunities I had to become involved. I think the atmosphere and the type of students that go to Oly are similar to some private schools. I think it would have crushed my will to learn. When there is that much competition and pressure from parents to succeed, the only way most teachers know how to separate everyone is to give more and more work and I don't think that is the answer. You get so caught up in trying to be caught up that you aren't even paying attention to what you are studying--just going through the motions. That was how my friends at Roland Hall ended up too. Soooo much homework that they would literally get home from school and spend 6 hours doing homework--5 days per week. They resented school and only did enough to get the grades their parents wanted and actually learning took a back seat to survival.

I could probably agree with the idea of sending kids to private school in elementary school. But I think after that you are doing most of them a disservice by sending them to private. There are always acceptions.