What happened to the good ol carberator?

[Skyetone]

I was running the snake last weekend. The carb got some rust in it and was sputtering. I got out a screwdriver, opened it up cleared out the jets, put it back together and I was on my way. It was like 5 minutes worth of work.

My girls 4runner EFI has what seems to me to be a clogged fuel filter. So I start diggin in to see what I can do here at home.The only filter is in the tank. The big book I have tells me to disconect this wire relay and short it out and I should hear the pump. I try it and nothing. It does run though so I know it works. It just sputters. So then there is this deal about "take off this line and check fuel pressure". OK thats more what I am looking for anyways. But then I am saposed to unhook this other wire clip, undoo a fuel line (banjo fitting) and put this cool pressure sensor in it and try and run the car. I don't have all these cool EFI testers. It tells my in trouble shooting that if I need to test about 2 dozen relays and sensors to get an ohm meter and check f3 and b6. then for another one check j7 and e69. WTF IS THAT ALL ABOUT.
If I don't have 3k worth of cool EFI computer sh!t in my garage. I can barely check squat.
I put some fuel injector cleaner in it. Hope it helps. After that it basically goes to the mechanic $$$$.

Why is EFI suck a cool idea? When it runs good it's great. When it falls down it's a hunk of sh!t that I can't work on.

I'll ALWAYS have a carbed trail rig. That way I can fix it if I need to.

 

[BBowski82]

I voted for TBI because its what I have.......but TBI is EFI?? wtf?

 

[pokeyYJ]

I voted EFI, but I actually have MPI! I love fuel injection and would NEVER switch to a carb. Once you understand how the system works, its really not that complicated. Plus the ability to run at extreme angles, and that it never sputters offroad.

 

[Caleb]

yep, like the last two have said...TBI is EFI and they are very simple once you know how they work...infact I dont know crap about carbs...the only carbs I can rebuild are the ones form two stroke honda motors(like the 13 hp, 9 hp, etc...) and some motorcycle carbs...never had a carbed vehicle I had to work on (always got rid of them too soon:d )so I have never messed with them

 

[BlackSheep]

EFI.

Skye,
you need to get out of the 70s...I mean.... a mullet? now you want nothing to do with EFI......

 

[Caleb]

Originally posted by BlackSheep
EFI.

Skye,
you need to get out of the 70s...I mean.... a mullet? now you want nothing to do with EFI......

hahahaha

 

[BBowski82]

The other thing to consider also it this--- It can actually be cheaper to throw a TBI setup on your rig than a quality carb setup.

I must say....I have worked on carbs some but mostly FI in the dealer... Its not hard at all. I have never seen a problem that can't be fixed, and its all a matter of learning. If your ambitious you can take a basic fuel and diagnostics class at you local community college...

 

[Skyetone]

I know that the 70's are dead. It just sucks with EFI or any other FI system (TBI ext) is hard to figure out here at home. If I get a tester of sorts then we are all good. It just seems to me that there are too many electronic controls to make it user freindly.
My carb will and does run on extreme angles, untill I bounce a little. I like the IDEA of EFI but it just sucks that you can't really tear it apart in a trail and fix it. Maybe if I got to know all the stupid sensors that could go bad?

Just look at all the hell suka went through when he welded his system together.... don't get that with a carbed rig

 

[cruiseroutfit]

I'm just waiting for the MPFI manifold to be done for the Landcruisers... hopefully by early summer. For years TBI swaps were the way to go, now its all about TPI/MPFI...

Hey Skye, are you running a stock Aisin carb? If so, it should run at every angle if tuned correctly... I run one as well...

 

[Skyetone]

yep. minus the rust thats from the POS tank it runs great. EASY to rebuild too.
I've now changed the fuel filter in the EFI, dushed the pizz outa the intake with carb cleaner, gonna check to see whats left. I either have motor probs or I guess toy has a hole to access the top of the tank. Hope something works.
I don't even want to deal with pulling the motor out to get it rebuilt if say I have a warped valve or something. Too much electrical crap.

 

[Bones]

replace the fuel filter UNDER THE INTAKE, check the spark, and then go to the injectors. **** it could be vacum as well...start checkin' and quite yer whinnin'

 

[pokeyYJ]

Originally posted by Skyetone
Just look at all the hell suka went through when he welded his system together.... don't get that with a carbed rig

Yeah but Suka also has the ability to run upsidedown...... don't get that with a carbed rig..

 

[cyberduke]

I like my Quadra-Jet! Had a struggle w/ Holly's, carter, etc. But got a Q-jet and rebuilt it. It's never run better.
Can't run up-side-down...but it comes close.

;-)

 

[kb7sei]

EFI is all I will ever run, street or trail. Carbs suck, period.

Those who don't understand it should take a basic electronics class or read up on it. It's cake once you understand how it works. There are a few sensors to worry about, and the computer. Most can be tested low-tech, no need for a fancy code scanner or anything like that.

For example, that fuel pressure test you wanted to run... Just move back to the next fitting down the line on a 22RE and you will find an inverted flare fitting. More to your liking? IIRC, stock Toy lines are 5/16 hardline, I THINK they are metric fittings though (10mm?). The external filter is under the intake, as allready mentioned. Replace it and you're probably fine.

I've diagnosed EFI problems with nothing more complicated/expensive than a multimeter. You can get one that will do what you need for less than $20 at Radio Shack or Harbor Freight. All you really need on it is a Voltmeter and an Ohmeter. NOTE: EFI systems can do bad things with "normal" test lights, use the meter or a "high-impedence" test light. All auto parts stores carry the required type in stock these days, and they are cheap.

I doubt you "intuitively" understood carbs either. Nobody I have ever met did anyway. They all had to learn about them. Teacher, book, parent, experimentation, whatever. EFI is no different or any harder to learn. If you take the time to understand how it works, it will be every bit as easy to diagnose as a carb is to you now. It's not that different, you still need air, fuel, and spark to make it go. You just get them a little differently now and it's all precisely metered. You also get more power, better milage, and lower polution out of the deal.

 

[bobdog]

Originally posted by kb7sei
EFI is all I will ever run, street or trail. Carbs suck, period.

Those who don't understand it should take a basic electronics class or read up on it. It's cake once you understand how it works. There are a few sensors to worry about, and the computer. Most can be tested low-tech, no need for a fancy code scanner or anything like that.

For example, that fuel pressure test you wanted to run... Just move back to the next fitting down the line on a 22RE and you will find an inverted flare fitting. More to your liking? IIRC, stock Toy lines are 5/16 hardline, I THINK they are metric fittings though (10mm?). The external filter is under the intake, as allready mentioned. Replace it and you're probably fine.

I've diagnosed EFI problems with nothing more complicated/expensive than a multimeter. You can get one that will do what you need for less than $20 at Radio Shack or Harbor Freight. All you really need on it is a Voltmeter and an Ohmeter. NOTE: EFI systems can do bad things with "normal" test lights, use the meter or a "high-impedence" test light. All auto parts stores carry the required type in stock these days, and they are cheap.

I doubt you "intuitively" understood carbs either. Nobody I have ever met did anyway. They all had to learn about them. Teacher, book, parent, experimentation, whatever. EFI is no different or any harder to learn. If you take the time to understand how it works, it will be every bit as easy to diagnose as a carb is to you now. It's not that different, you still need air, fuel, and spark to make it go. You just get them a little differently now and it's all precisely metered. You also get more power, better milage, and lower polution out of the deal.

While I agree that EFI is preferable for four wheeling and for most engines in general, carbs do not suck period. For most high horsepower american V8s you just cant beat a carb for the bang for the buck. The carb will atomize the fuel better than FI in most cases making more power. There are very very expensive FI setups that can almost match the numbers that can be acheived with modern big bore carbs, but they are 10 times the cost! For modest power engines that can use factory based FI setups their is really no contest. For people wanting to go really fast they better be very weathy to run EFI.

 

[BBowski82]

Originally posted by bobdog


While I agree that EFI is preferable for four wheeling and for most engines in general, carbs do not suck period. For most high horsepower american V8s you just cant beat a carb for the bang for the buck. The carb will atomize the fuel better than FI in most cases making more power. There are very very expensive FI setups that can almost match the numbers that can be acheived with modern big bore carbs, but they are 10 times the cost! For modest power engines that can use factory based FI setups their is really no contest. For people wanting to go really fast they better be very weathy to run EFI.

Woah! a carb atomizes fuel better than EFI?? Do you know what atomizing fuel is? A carb has problems atomizing fuel for many reasons that TPI beats hands down.

1. TPI injects directly at the valve. No big deal?? A carb is dumping fuel from on top of the intake and therefore the vaporized fuel just "sits" in the intake until and intake valve is opened. So when the fuel "sits" there it pools on the intake walls....totally defeating vaporization. BECAUSE....you have to remeber that fuel doesn't really atomize until it is sucked into the cylinder and past the valve where the fuel boils due to the great vacuum. It is much easier to boil a fuel that is vaporized raher than pooled.

2. It is also much easier to boil a cool fuel. A carb sits right on top of the intake and uses a Fuel Well to supply fuel, thus the fuel gets hot before it is even used. TPI circulates fuel to injectors and keeps it cool. The temperature of fuel has a lot to do with Atomization.

3. Another thing to remember....with a carb you pull air into the intake right from the hot engine compartment. Thus increasing intake temps even more. With TPI you pull cool air from the fender well and bypass all this heat.

So you see it is a grave generalization to say that most V8s would be better with a carb. FI is totally reliable on cars up to 550-600 HP without a problem. Now if you are building a drag car then sure stick with a carb. WHY? because you don't have to worry about drivability....the motor just has to run high R's down the track and thats it. So you build a carb for WOT use.
BUT if you are running a car that is a street driven hot rod, a canyon cruiser, a DD, a street/strip vehicle, or a road racer then get rid of the carburetor. DONE> B.

 

[bobdog]

Originally posted by BBowski82


Woah! a carb atomizes fuel better than EFI?? Do you know what atomizing fuel is? A carb has problems atomizing fuel for many reasons that TPI beats hands down.

1. TPI injects directly at the valve. No big deal?? A carb is dumping fuel from on top of the intake and therefore the vaporized fuel just "sits" in the intake until and intake valve is opened. So when the fuel "sits" there it pools on the intake walls....totally defeating vaporization. BECAUSE....you have to remeber that fuel doesn't really atomize until it is sucked into the cylinder and past the valve where the fuel boils due to the great vacuum. It is much easier to boil a fuel that is vaporized raher than pooled.

2. It is also much easier to boil a cool fuel. A carb sits right on top of the intake and uses a Fuel Well to supply fuel, thus the fuel gets hot before it is even used. TPI circulates fuel to injectors and keeps it cool. The temperature of fuel has a lot to do with Atomization.

3. Another thing to remember....with a carb you pull air into the intake right from the hot engine compartment. Thus increasing intake temps even more. With TPI you pull cool air from the fender well and bypass all this heat.

So you see it is a grave generalization to say that most V8s would be better with a carb. FI is totally reliable on cars up to 550-600 HP without a problem. Now if you are building a drag car then sure stick with a carb. WHY? because you don't have to worry about drivability....the motor just has to run high R's down the track and thats it. So you build a carb for WOT use.
BUT if you are running a car that is a street driven hot rod, a canyon cruiser, a DD, a street/strip vehicle, or a road racer then get rid of the carburetor. DONE> B.

You seem to think I am an idiot. I do know what atomization is. I was not talking about street driven cars. I was talking about drag and other race cars. Fuel will atomize in the carb venturi, there will be lower presure there than in the cyl. It will not sit in the intake remember the engine is moving tons of air at the RPMs race motors turn. I am aware of the advantages of a dry intake and the problems the wet intake can cause. Maybe you need to reread my post again. I said that EFI is preferable in most cases and for fourwheeling. Four of the five vehicles I own are Fuel injected and I love it but carbs have their place and they do not suck. What affordable EFI system can suport 550 to 600 HP? I could name plenty of carbs I could afford that would. If you get creative you can feed a carb cool air just as easy as FI so I don't know what that has to do with anything. The one thing that you have mentioned that I did not know and would like to know more about is that it is easier to boil cool fuel. I knew that cool fuel was preferable but I assumed it was because of a denser air fuel charge. Unless gasoline relies on different phisics principles than every other matter it should turn to a gas at higher tempertures not lower.

 

[bobdog]

FWIW I cast my vote for EFI

 

[bobdog]

http://www.bgfuel.com/bgfuel/63.aspx

Check out his page. This looks like a trick setup. Note BBowski how Barry Grant mentions the superior fuel atomization of the venturi booster carberater.

 

[BBowski82]

That does look like a trick setup....but why?? May as well go MPI. Fuel is not atomized at the venturi...It is vaporized. It is atomized at the valve and then ionized upon entering the cylinder.