What rig would I want next? Imaginary build - IFS 1st gen 4runner

[sixstringsteve]

I'm trying to imagine what rig I'd want if I didn't have my tacoma. I realize there probably isn't a more suitable rig out there for me than my taco, but I'm getting bored and building rigs is fun (usually). So I'm walking myself through this build to examine the pros and cons before doing anything drastic.

Here are my thoughts/wants/needs:

- 4 seats
- not much lift
- nothing too radical
- ability to drive comfortably on the freeway; almost all the places I take my rigs are at least 3 hours away
- must have 4-low
- reliable
- pretty fuel efficient (over 17 mpg)
- If it's unique, that's a plus in my book.
- size 31-33" tires. I think 35's are awesome, especially when aired down on bumpy roads, but they take away from the freeway ride quite a bit)
- ability to cruise over bumpy roads at speed (roads like those found in the Uintas, Lockhart, etc)

 

[sixstringsteve]

Here's how I'd build it:

- I'd find a super clean 1st gen IFS 4runner (1986-'89) with a dying 3.0 v6
- 3.4L swap
- ditch the torsion bars (I hear they ride rough) and replace them with some great front shocks. i don't think I want to go LT, but it's a possibility
- 31-32" all-terrains
- minimal lift - 2" or less
- rear locker
- possibly run dual cases, still unsure about this one
- sliders
- simple rear bumper
- something like an ARB bull bar up front

 

[sixstringsteve]

Here are the pros and cons I can imagine vs my current rig:

Pros
- possibility to be cheaper overall (or more expensive if I'm not careful)
- cargo space is covered. this means it's potentially more secure and it may keep my gear cleaner on a trip. It'll definitely keep it out of the elements better.
- ability to sleep in the back of the rig if wanted
- ability to remove the top (though it isn't as easy as I'd like it to be). I can't deny how fun it is driving up the canyon with the top off.
- lighter and much peppier with a 3.4L (from what I've heard, no 1st hand experience)
- great learning experience - I haven't built the ifs up on these. I don't know much about long-travel, or really making a rig go faster on the bumps. I've also never done an engine swap and I know I'd love the learning process (and hate it at times as well).
- It'd be fairly unique and a bit of a sleeper


Cons
- it's getting tough to find a clean 1st gen runner, though finding one with a 3.0 may be easier? ('87+ had the 3.0 option)
- I'd have to run a body lift or a hood scoop if I do a 3.4L swap. Neither option is ideal for me.
- less passenger space than my taco
- no 4 doors for my passengers
- less cargo space than my taco's bed
- cargo less accessible in a 4runner vs my taco
- the 4runner will be more modified if it has a 3.4L swap. It'd have to be a super clean swap to allow my mind to be at ease in the backcountry
- it's an old vehicle. Finding parts can be a bit tougher.
- not much room for the rear suspsension on these. The wheels can only move up so much before hitting sheetmetal (though 31-32" tires will give me more room)
- I wouldn't have a truck. I've always preferred a truck over an SUV, the bed is super handy. The good news is that I'd still have a tailgate for cooking on.


Unknowns
- which ifs setup to go with? I've been happy with my OME's, but I think i'm starting to push them a bit. Maybe a nice coilover (though i've had issues with coilovers before)
- where is the spare tire on a 1st gen runner? Under the floor, or inside the shell behind the back seat? (it's been a while since I've owned one)
- what kind of real-world MPG numbers could I expect with a 3.4L 5 speed on 4.10s and 31-22s?
- how streetable would it be? Would it be comfortable for 10+ hour trips across the country?
- unsure about the emissions testing, I'd have a lot to learn there.
- can aftermarket fenders keep the front tires completely covered if I'm running a LT kit?
- what should I expect to spend on a coilovers conversion up front? What about a total chaos kit? What would I do in the rear?
- can i have a rig with very little body roll on the freeway while still maintaining the ability to go relatively fast (40-50mph) over bumpy rocks?

 

[MattL]

One potential con is engine and road noise.
Looking forward to the new direction. Are you strictly set on building it your self? I have seen very nice gen 1 4runners for sale that could accomplish what your asking. Are you looking at manual or auto?

 

[sixstringsteve]

I'd want a 5 speed. I wouldn't mind buying one that's already built. In fact, I'd prefer it. It would save me time and money. The problem is, most people don't typically build rigs the "right" way (or what I think is the "right" way).

I'm not 100% sure I'll go down this road, I'm just trying to think it through. My current rig is great, it just feels a little sluggish on the road, and handles like a truck on 35's. Part of me knows no other rig will satisfy me more, but the other part of me wants a change.

 

[sixstringsteve]

Here's the closest rig I can find to what I want.

View attachment 89676

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Fwiw removing the torsions isn't as easy as adding a new shock. The 1st gen 4Runner (86 up) use a torsion bar and shock combo. Ditch the torsion bar and you need some sort of spring in their be it coilover or stand alone coil. The shock mounting they use is really short and nowhere near beefy enough to support the spring rate needed. To convert you would need to reconfigure the upper control arm, and rework the frame to allow for mounting. I can only imaging there is a kit out there to do just this from Total Chaos or similar.

 

[sixstringsteve]

Great info Kurt, thanks. Does anyone know of a torsion bar that makes these ride well? I know torsion bars can bring the suck, but they I also know that the torsion bar setup on a 100 series rides really well.

The total chaos kit looks like it replaces your UCAs, LCAs, and a slew of other stuff. I don't really want the wider track width, the tires sticking outside the fenders, and I don't really need 12" of wheel travel.

The front suspension mods needed for this might be the nail in the coffin for me that makes it not worth it for me.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Bryson ran a similar setup on his 2nd gen 4Ruuner, can't remember if he had the OME torsions or just stock but I know he was running the BJ spacer on the top. It rode quite nicely. We did a handful of trips together when he owned it, I don't recall the suspension being a limiting factor so much as the 22RE or 3.slow he had under the hood.



Scott Howe's 1st gen w/torsions. I've done trips all over the west with Scott including some brutal washboard for miles and miles in Death Valley. Again I don't think the suspension is the limiting factor compared to a 22RE. I don't think they will soak up speed on washboard as nicely as an outfitted Tacoma but then again they don't have the same speed either so it's a wash. On top of that, you have a 3.4L Tacoma with smooth suspension, your already downgrading imo regardless of which suspension you bolt under an older truck outside of super high-end long travel which won't have the longevity, all compromises.



The other failure point of these trucks is the steering, a bit underpowered with larger tires and the idler arms are a known weak/wear point. I was with Bryson on a Moab trip when he broke his steering and had to leave it for the night and I know Scott runs some heavy duty idler and carriers spares.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Steve, since we're playing hypotheticals, what would it take to make your Taco EXACTLY what you'd want?

For him to have a build 1st gen 4Runner like this.

 

[sixstringsteve]

From a PM conversation with Carsonic1974. I think it applies here, so I'm adding it here.

I want to pick your brain about long travel (or medium travel) '86-94 toyotas. I'm never going to jump, or go over 60 mph on dirt, so I don't need anything crazy. I just want something that's stable on the road without a lot of body roll, but supple in the dirt
so I can cruise on rocky, bumpy dirt roads (like the ones up in the Uintas, or AF Canyon) at 40 mph. What do you recommend?

I think alot of it depends on your budget. were you unhappy with your rid of your tacoma on dirt roads at 40 mph. If im not mistaken, You had OME stuff with some kind of upper control arm. where you happy with the performance?

I think there are two routes you can take
- First is the cheaper route, upper control arms, and good, tuneable shocks on each corner, and good bump stops. Maybe some aftermarket (Deaver is a good one) leaf spring out back


- The second option is a little more involved and alot more expensive. It would be an entry level long travel kit. It would net you about 13 inches of good travel and can still maintain 4wd. I prefer Total Chaos's front kit for an application like this; it is tried, tested, and proven. keep in mind you will need shock, shock mounts, bumps, limit straps, fenders, etc for the front still. Then you still have to deal with the rear. You have to decide how far you want to go with the rear, stock length rear leafs, or long travel 62" leafs, or 4 link. Plus once again you have shocks, bumps, shock mounts, limit straps, spring pads, spring mounts etc. if you decide to go long travel.

It is a slippery slope once you go longtravel, one thing leads to another to another to another. I will remind you that nothing about this stuff is cheap either. I would guess you would have $5k-$6k just in parts alone in a very conservative build using new parts, and doing all the fab by yourself. I would be happy to help when I can aswell, we need more desert trucks around here!

As far as stability, and performance? You would be able to fly up AF canyon and hit conservative jumps and woops if you decide you want to after all. As far a plush ride, that all depends on you shock tune. You either tune shocks to go fast, or be smushy and comfortable for the driver... Its hard to do both, its like comparing a race car to a fun street ride.

Also keep in mind, your track width is going to be considerably wider then stock... probably something like 6.5 inches wider. This may or may not be important to you

 

[sixstringsteve]

I think alot of it depends on your budget. were you unhappy with your rid of your tacoma on dirt roads at 40 mph. If im not mistaken, You had OME stuff with some kind of upper control arm. where you happy with the performance?

Correct, I have SPC/Light Racing Upper Control arms with OME sport struts on my Tacoma. I'm happy with the performance, but I wouldn't mind the ability to blast through rocky/bumpy roads even faster without feeling like I'm killing my truck. I wouldn't mind shocks that are valved a little stiffer, so they don't bottom out on hard hits, but for the most part I'm good with my setup. If I could replicate it with a 1st gen ifs 4runner, it'd be ideal, especially with the lower weight.

I also need a tiny bit more travel in the rear, I'm bottoming out the rear a lot at the moment. When my OME add-a-leaf is in the rear, I don't bottom out, but the ride is harsh when I'm not loaded up.

I think there are two routes you can take
- First is the cheaper route, upper control arms, and good, tuneable shocks on each corner, and good bump stops. Maybe some aftermarket (Deaver is a good one) leaf spring out back

Can the torsion bars be made to ride decently, or will they always be overwhelmed with this type of driving?

I think there are two routes you can take
- The second option is a little more involved and alot more expensive. It would be an entry level long travel kit. It would net you about 13 inches of good travel and can still maintain 4wd. I prefer Total Chaos's front kit for an application like this; it is tried, tested, and proven. keep in mind you will need shock, shock mounts, bumps, limit straps, fenders, etc for the front still. Then you still have to deal with the rear. You have to decide how far you want to go with the rear, stock length rear leafs, or long travel 62" leafs, or 4 link. Plus once again you have shocks, bumps, shock mounts, limit straps, spring pads, spring mounts etc. if you decide to go long travel.

It is a slippery slope once you go longtravel, one thing leads to another to another to another. I will remind you that nothing about this stuff is cheap either. I would guess you would have $5k-$6k just in parts alone in a very conservative build using new parts, and doing all the fab by yourself. I would be happy to help when I can aswell, we need more desert trucks around here!

As far as stability, and performance? You would be able to fly up AF canyon and hit conservative jumps and woops if you decide you want to after all. As far a plush ride, that all depends on you shock tune. You either tune shocks to go fast, or be smushy and comfortable for the driver... Its hard to do both, its like comparing a race car to a fun street ride.

Also keep in mind, your track width is going to be considerably wider then stock... probably something like 6.5 inches wider. This may or may not be important to you

I think there are two routes you can take
- The second option is a little more involved and alot more expensive. It would be an entry level long travel kit. It would net you about 13 inches of good travel and can still maintain 4wd. I prefer Total Chaos's front kit for an application like this; it is tried, tested, and proven. keep in mind you will need shock, shock mounts, bumps, limit straps, fenders, etc for the front still. Then you still have to deal with the rear. You have to decide how far you want to go with the rear, stock length rear leafs, or long travel 62" leafs, or 4 link. Plus once again you have shocks, bumps, shock mounts, limit straps, spring pads, spring mounts etc. if you decide to go long travel.

It is a slippery slope once you go longtravel, one thing leads to another to another to another. I will remind you that nothing about this stuff is cheap either. I would guess you would have $5k-$6k just in parts alone in a very conservative build using new parts, and doing all the fab by yourself. I would be happy to help when I can aswell, we need more desert trucks around here!

So... around $5-6k would get me a decent Total Chaos setup? Does Total Chaos (or anyone else) make a decent non-LT setup that wouldn't increase my track width?

For the rear, i'm not wanting to put shock hoops through the body or go crazy with that. I'm not going to jump it, or hit whoops at 60 mph. I'm just going to be bombing old mining roads like the ones you'd find up in the Uintas or up AF Canyon.

As far a plush ride, that all depends on you shock tune. You either tune shocks to go fast, or be smushy and comfortable for the driver... Its hard to do both, its like comparing a race car to a fun street ride.

I don't mind a stiff ride on the road, I prefer that. What I don't want is a smushy ride on the road with lots of body roll.

Thanks again for all the info, it really helps! Feel free to post up in my thread, I think it'll be good info for others.

Steve

 

[sixstringsteve]

Steve, since we're playing hypotheticals, what would it take to make your Taco EXACTLY what you'd want?

The only way i can imagine my tacoma being better for my driving is if I had 2" more wheel travel, high-end coilovers that are valved for the driving I do, 20% more power and a 20% increase in MPG, and smaller tires. I realize most of those are not even possible, or feasible, or financially sound. And 6 months from now, I'd probably want something different.

I think with each trip I go on I think "if only my truck were a little different, it would be perfect for this current trip." I know people do it with crawlers all the time. "if only I had 37's, I'd make it up wayne's world." or "if only I had xxxxxxx, then I could get up xxxx obstacle." I'm just doing it from a camping, bumpy road standpoint rather than a rock crawling standpoint.

The reality is, my truck is fantastic for all sorts of driving. There's no rig that's going to be perfect in every situation, but I think this truck is about as close as it gets to that balance.

 

[sixstringsteve]

I don't think they will soak up speed on washboard as nicely as an outfitted Tacoma but then again they don't have the same speed either so it's a wash. On top of that, you have a 3.4L Tacoma with smooth suspension, your already downgrading imo regardless of which suspension you bolt under an older truck outside of super high-end long travel which won't have the longevity, all compromises.

View attachment 89678

The other failure point of these trucks is the steering, a bit underpowered with larger tires and the idler arms are a known weak/wear point. I was with Bryson on a Moab trip when he broke his steering and had to leave it for the night and I know Scott runs some heavy duty idler and carriers spares.

This is exactly what I needed to hear. Unless I go with full long-travel, it's not going to be an improvement over my current setup. This means it's not an upgrade, but a downgrade. If anything, I'd like an upgraded suspension.

Do you think an expensive aftermarket long-travel setup on one of these 1st gen runners would have significantly less longevity than my current setup?

 

[cruiseroutfit]

...Do you think an expensive aftermarket long-travel setup on one of these 1st gen runners would have significantly less longevity than my current setup?

Absolutely. Spherical joints get loose and will need replacement/rebuild. CV's will need far more attention than a standard OE CV that can see 100k+ without even a second look and of course you know that rebuild-able shocks will need just that, rebuilds every 1-2 years depending on your driving. These setups are obviously much higher performance at speed versus a sealed system BUT that comes at a cost. We run high-travel parts and rebuildable shocks/coil overs on our race car, and they need to be serviced after every race. While race conditions are obviously outside the typical use of a 4x4, miles, dust, dirt and worse yet the cold salty Utah winters are not. If you were building a part-time go-fast rig for use on a desert trip, I see the merit. Trying to make it a winter daily-driver and something that is going to see high miles, doesn't make sense to me. All that wrapped around an older platform which means more squeaks, rattles and less creature comforts than a Tacoma. If your going to keep the Tacoma and build a 4Runner, I totally get that. Swapping for the Tacoma for the potential gain of a bit more performance out of the suspension with drawbacks in many other fields, doesn't make any sense to me.

Obviously my needs are different and I don't align in the 'one-rig-fits-all' mentality, too many compromises in all directions. In my opinion it is cheaper to have 2 vehicles each doing their own thing than it is to try and build one to do 75% of what each can. Insurance is cheap and neighbors can't complain about licensed rigs

 

[sixstringsteve]

Thanks Kurt, that was the voice of reason I needed. I think I'm over-driving my OME setup at the moment. I don't think I'm ready to commit to expensive coilovers that need to be rebuilt every year (though I would LOVE being able to adjust rebound and compression).

It sounds like I've got two options:

1) be more patient and drive slower on bumpy roads

2) spend $$$ on premium coilovers and get them rebuilt every year after the winter salt eats them alive (tried that once, and I didn't even get a year out of them).

Neither option sounds very fun, but option 1 seems like the best option.

Oddly enough, I don't bottom out my front struts very much. Maybe I just need some higher end rear shocks that I can adjust the rebound and compression. Those shouldn't have to be rebuilt as much as front coilovers, right? The trick will be finding shocks that match the front struts.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Thanks Kurt, that was the voice of reason I needed. I think I'm over-driving my OME setup at the moment. I don't think I'm ready to commit to expensive coilovers that need to be rebuilt every year (though I would LOVE being able to adjust rebound and compression).

It sounds like I've got two options:

1) be more patient and drive slower on bumpy roads

2) spend $$$ on premium coilovers and get them rebuilt every year after the winter salt eats them alive (tried that once, and I didn't even get a year out of them).

Neither option sounds very fun, but option 1 seems like the best option.

Oddly enough, I don't bottom out my front struts very much. Maybe I just need some higher end rear shocks that I can adjust the rebound and compression. Those shouldn't have to be rebuilt as much as front coilovers, right? The trick will be finding shocks that match the front struts.

Consider Timbren or air bumps. They are very handy in fine-tuning suspension. Fwiw I ran a slightly taller assembly in my Tacoma (15mm of spacers) which naturally pre-loads the suspension/coil and provides a firmer ride. It worked really well for the additional weight on had on my truck and while I recognized it's limits, it was often at a pace higher than I should be driving while being safe and providing some level of mechanical sympathy to the rest of the truck.


My vote, build a long-travel 4Runner. But keep your Tacoma during the process and don't sell either until you've had adequate time to use/abuse them both side by side. The grass is always greener, have two lawns.

 

[sixstringsteve]

The grass is always greener, have two lawns.

Quote of the year!

 

[sixstringsteve]

Consider Timbren or air bumps. They are very handy in fine-tuning suspension. Fwiw I ran a slightly taller assembly in my Tacoma (15mm of spacers) which naturally pre-loads the suspension/coil and provides a firmer ride. It worked really well for the additional weight on had on my truck and while I recognized it's limits, it was often at a pace higher than I should be driving while being safe and providing some level of mechanical sympathy to the rest of the truck.

When I'm driving around town, the OME add-a-leafs beat me up. But when I'm camping with a load or people, it's perfect. I think a slight spacer up front would help me balance the truck out when i'm not carrying a load.

Air bumps may be the hot ticket.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

When I'm driving around town, the OME add-a-leafs beat me up. But when I'm camping with a load or people, it's perfect. I think a slight spacer up front would help me balance the truck out when i'm not carrying a load.

Air bumps may be the hot ticket.

Going from a truck with no load (around town driving) to full travel mode (which can be 1000+ lbs of gear, fuel and passengers) is always a conundrum when setting up a suspension. Short of some kind of dynamic suspension i.e. air shocks, air bags, AHC, KDSS type stuff, your stuck tuning for the uses you see the most or in my opinion the uses where ideal ride and load capacity matter, i.e. off-road. Timbren's or air bumps help bridge this gap, allowing slightly softer spring rating while providing compression control. They won't however deal with sag created by soft spring rates and high loads. Air bags are an option there and they can/have been used with decent results albeit not the most reliable of options.