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jeep-N-montero

jeep-N-montero

Formerly black_ZJ
Location
Bountiful
As much as I like people defending themselves, especially against thieves, the question of "deadly force" may arise if this goes to trial. I only say this because the intruder was not described as being armed, and the woman could have just as easily warned him to leave before shooting him, or avoided it altogether by making noise in the house when he first came to the door in an attempt to dissuade him. And given the amount of time she had to "prepare", some may even question if the shooting was "premeditated". Even police officers have to prove that there is a strong probability of serious injury to themselves or others whenever there is an officer-involved shooting. This why I love having dogs, they alert half the neighborhood if someone even walks by our house.
 
Kevin B.

Kevin B.

Not often wrong. Never quite right.
Moderator
Location
Stinkwater
black_ZJ said:
As much as I like people defending themselves, especially against thieves, the question of "deadly force" may arise if this goes to trial. I only say this because the intruder was not described as being armed, and the woman could have just as easily warned him to leave before shooting him, or avoided it altogether by making noise in the house when he first came to the door in an attempt to dissuade him. And given the amount of time she had to "prepare", some may even question if the shooting was "premeditated". Even police officers have to prove that there is a strong probability of serious injury to themselves or others whenever there is an officer-involved shooting. This why I love having dogs, they alert half the neighborhood if someone even walks by our house.
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Nope.

Deadly Force

There are 3 code sections that govern when lethal or deadly force may lawfully be used.

Defense from a forcible felony; A person is justified in using threats or force to the degree they reasonably believe it is necessary to stop another person's imminent use of unlawful force. A person is justified in using deadly force which may harm or kill only if he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent death or great bodily injury to himself or herself or a third person or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony (unless it is regarding defense of habitation, which has it's own requirements below). You are not justified if you were the aggressor or you are/were/on-the-way-to committing a felony. (The state has pre-empted local cities and counties from further restricting this defense.)(16-3-21)

Defense of habitation; (here habitation means dwelling, motor vehicle, or place of business) A person is justified in the use of force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm only if:

1. A person is breaking\has broken into your home in a violent and tumultuous manner, and you think that the intruder is going to assault you or someone else living there.
2. A person who is not a member of the family or household and who unlawfully and forcibly enters the residence and you know it is an unlawful entry.
3. The person using such force reasonably believes that the entry is made or attempted for the purpose of committing a felony therein and that such force is necessary to prevent the commission of the felony.
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http://www.georgiapacking.org/law.php

Georgia is a castle-doctrine state. If the news blurb is accurate, then all three bullet points are satisfied and she's got absolutely zero chance of being found criminally at fault.
 
TJDukit

TJDukit

I.Y.A.A.Y.A.S.
Location
Clearfield
^^^This. If you break into my house you had better run away and get out that door before I can plant 16 rounds in your chest or back doesn't matter much to me which one.
 
TJDukit

TJDukit

I.Y.A.A.Y.A.S.
Location
Clearfield
TRD270 said:
Careful on the back shots in Utah :D
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Not if they are in my house I won't be. For all I know they could be going for a gun, one of the others that I have in the house maybe or one they brought with them and as long as they are in my house they are considered a threat to me and my family and will be shot. I will of course make sure that it is someone that doesn't belong there, I would hate to shoot my buddy that lives with me in the middle of the night getting something out of the fridge:D
 
jeeper

jeeper

I live my life 1 dumpster at a time
Location
So Jo, Ut
black_ZJ said:
As much as I like people defending themselves, especially against thieves, the question of "deadly force" may arise if this goes to trial. I only say this because the intruder was not described as being armed, and the woman could have just as easily warned him to leave before shooting him, or avoided it altogether by making noise in the house when he first came to the door in an attempt to dissuade him. And given the amount of time she had to "prepare", some may even question if the shooting was "premeditated". Even police officers have to prove that there is a strong probability of serious injury to themselves or others whenever there is an officer-involved shooting. This why I love having dogs, they alert half the neighborhood if someone even walks by our house.
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The dude had a crow bar with him..
She tied to flee for safety...
One less bad guy on the streets.
 
TJDukit

TJDukit

I.Y.A.A.Y.A.S.
Location
Clearfield
Herzog said:
I was going to say this... unless they are headed in the relevant direction of another family member and not for an exit.
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The front door of my house anyway would also be in the direction of my other firearms so I would still feel a threat, back door would be a different story but dude better not do anything other than run out that door.
 
jeeper

jeeper

I live my life 1 dumpster at a time
Location
So Jo, Ut
The news reports that she shot him 5 times in the face and neck with a .38. He was still able to drive off before crashing his car. That is insane. I would think any shot to the face would stop someone.
 
muleskinner

muleskinner

Well-Known Member
Location
Enoch, UT
black_ZJ said:
As much as I like people defending themselves, especially against thieves, the question of "deadly force" may arise if this goes to trial. I only say this because the intruder was not described as being armed, and the woman could have just as easily warned him to leave before shooting him, or avoided it altogether by making noise in the house when he first came to the door in an attempt to dissuade him. And given the amount of time she had to "prepare", some may even question if the shooting was "premeditated". Even police officers have to prove that there is a strong probability of serious injury to themselves or others whenever there is an officer-involved shooting. This why I love having dogs, they alert half the neighborhood if someone even walks by our house.
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This is the dumbest thing I've ever read on RME. Period.
 
jentzschman

jentzschman

Well-Known Member
Location
Sandy, Utah
skippy said:
You will have time to "fix" the scene before cops get there.......:D
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You will have lost of time to think about that move, in jail. NEVER "fix" the scene. (sorry, did not know if you were serious of joking) If they turn to leave, and you know they are heading toward the exit, do not fire. If they turn to go after a family member, then unload.

Also remember this piece of advice:

[video=youtube;6wXkI4t7nuc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc[/video]
 
TJDukit

TJDukit

I.Y.A.A.Y.A.S.
Location
Clearfield
I get why you guys think that shooting someone in the back is a bad idea but as long as someone is in my home illegally I have a reason to believe that any movement you make is in an attempt to harm me or my family. If you are moving towards my front door I am going to assume that you are heading for my basement, in which case I'm going to assume that that is the way you came in and you saw my guns on your way in, in which case you will get shot. If you are at the back door and it's open and you are close enough to it that I don't believe you are going for a weapon you brought with you then by all means leave and don't make me shoot you.

The point that I'm trying to get at is that as long as someone is in my home illegally I have every right to defend myself and as far as I am concerned I have every reason to believe they intend to do me or my family harm.

Title 76Utah Criminal Code
Chapter 2Principles of Criminal Responsibility
Section 405Force in defense of habitation.
76-2-405. Force in defense of habitation.
(1) A person is justified in using force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other's unlawful entry into or attack upon his habitation; however, he is justified in the use of force which is intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury only if:
(a) the entry is made or attempted in a violent and tumultuous manner, surreptitiously, or by stealth, and he reasonably believes that the entry is attempted or made for the purpose of assaulting or offering personal violence to any person, dwelling, or being in the habitation and he reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent the assault or offer of personal violence; or
(b) he reasonably believes that the entry is made or attempted for the purpose of committing a felony in the habitation and that the force is necessary to prevent the commission of the felony.
(2) The person using force or deadly force in defense of habitation is presumed for the purpose of both civil and criminal cases to have acted reasonably and had a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or serious bodily injury if the entry or attempted entry is unlawful and is made or attempted by use of force, or in a violent and tumultuous manner, or surreptitiously or by stealth, or for the purpose of committing a felony.


If I use my logic in this then I am completely justified according to the state law.
 
jentzschman

jentzschman

Well-Known Member
Location
Sandy, Utah
TJDukit said:
I get why you guys think that shooting someone in the back is a bad idea but as long as someone is in my home illegally I have a reason to believe that any movement you make is in an attempt to harm me or my family. If you are moving towards my front door I am going to assume that you are heading for my basement, in which case I'm going to assume that that is the way you came in and you saw my guns on your way in, in which case you will get shot. If you are at the back door and it's open and you are close enough to it that I don't believe you are going for a weapon you brought with you then by all means leave and don't make me shoot you.

The point that I'm trying to get at is that as long as someone is in my home illegally I have every right to defend myself and as far as I am concerned I have every reason to believe they intend to do me or my family harm.

Title 76Utah Criminal Code
Chapter 2Principles of Criminal Responsibility
Section 405Force in defense of habitation.
76-2-405. Force in defense of habitation.
(1) A person is justified in using force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other's unlawful entry into or attack upon his habitation; however, he is justified in the use of force which is intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury only if:
(a) the entry is made or attempted in a violent and tumultuous manner, surreptitiously, or by stealth, and he reasonably believes that the entry is attempted or made for the purpose of assaulting or offering personal violence to any person, dwelling, or being in the habitation and he reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent the assault or offer of personal violence; or
(b) he reasonably believes that the entry is made or attempted for the purpose of committing a felony in the habitation and that the force is necessary to prevent the commission of the felony.
(2) The person using force or deadly force in defense of habitation is presumed for the purpose of both civil and criminal cases to have acted reasonably and had a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or serious bodily injury if the entry or attempted entry is unlawful and is made or attempted by use of force, or in a violent and tumultuous manner, or surreptitiously or by stealth, or for the purpose of committing a felony.


If I use my logic in this then I am completely justified according to the state law.
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Great point. I agree, just wanted to offer a caution I guess. But, this post lays it out there in pretty straight forward writing.
 
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