A win for SUWA???

[Stephen]

Look, Utah is more than a thousand miles away from any of my problems; I've no dog in this fight anymore.

How's "Take Back Florida" going?

The US Constitution is clear on the issue

As long as you ignore 225 years of laws and the Utah Constitution, sure.

How can UT do a better job managing/enforcing rules than the Fed? Boots on the ground. Currently, how many rangers are there per region? I don't know, but it's not a lot.

Let's say these regions transferred to state control; the current staff couldn't stretch that far and would need to expand. How many people would sign up to be trained/certified to be state volunteer Rangers? How many people on RME alone world spend at least one if their days off on duty as trail patrol? My guess is the state would have an army of people sign up.

Utah is having trouble funding their own State Parks and keeping those areas staffed with rangers. How would they be able to afford to on all the land that is now Federally funded? Even, as you suggest, you try to implement a volunteer force, that would cost millions to get going and maintain. Money the state doesn't have and certainly wouldn't have if they gained ownership of all the Federal land. How would the state get that money? Selling off the land for development. Or, to save money, they'd do what the Fed's are doing, shutting it down to access because thats easier and cheaper to do than actually managing it.

But lets say that some magical pot of gold is found under the Territorial State House in Fillmore and Utah could suddenly afford to start a volunteer program. Sure, you'd probably have a lot of initial interest, but then people would go back to watching "Honey Boo Boo" and whatever new JJ Abrams trash has shown up on the tube and interest would wain. Look at the current Trail Patrol program sponsored by the state. How's that going? Oh… yeah. Its dead because of lack on volunteers. Same thing would happen.

The state can do a better job managing/protecting the land than any Fed agency because it's full of people that own it for realz.

Sure it could. Honey Boo Boo could do a better job than the Feds, but thats not saying much.

So lets run through some very dumbed down hypothetical scenario's to make this happen:

Scenario 1:

First, the Utah Constitution would have to be amended to change the language stating that it relinquishes ownership of lands within the states boundaries to the Federal Government.
Second, The US Congress would have to recognize that the Utah Constitution trumps US law. (Just as a caveat, a small war was fought over this point in the 1860's.)
Third, a timetable would be put in place for the transfer of title.
Fourth, Utah would take control.

Scenario 2:

First, Legislation would have to be put forth in both houses of congress.
Second, Both houses agree that land in Utah should belong to and be managed by the state rather than the Feds
Third, The President signs into law the "Federal Government is Stupid and Cannot Manage Lands in Utah So We Will Give Them Back Act".
Fourth, SUWA, Sierra Club, Wilderness Society, BRC, USA-All, UFWDA, Et. All challenge the Constitutionality of FGSCMLUSWWGTBA in court all the way up to the SCOTUS and the justices find it to be sound.
Fifth, Utah takes title of the lands.

Scenario 3:

First, Utah secedes from the United States of America and expels all foreign nationals (NPS, BLM, FS Rangers) from the new Democratic Peoples Republic of Deseret, or DPRD.
Second, The US, incensed by the poor treatment by their citizens by the DPRD concludes that it will begin military operations to regain control of lands it has lost.
Third, The mighty and powerful military of the DPRD repels the US invasion and maintains its sovereignty. (Hurrah!)
Fourth, The US and DPRD sign treaty terms guaranteeing the integrity of Deseret's boundaries as well as granting them Nevada and most of California.
FiFth, The Premier of Deseret announces the discovery of Dilithium Crystals on much of the DPRD's undeveloped lands (such as the San Rafael Swell).
Sixth, Massive energy development in the DPRD, 4-wheelers are brutally repressed for attempting to maintain traditional access.
Seventh, Kurt Williams (aka cruiseroutfit), leader of the underground Four Wheelers for Freedom and Liberty movement that supports 4-wheeler rights and a return of Utah to the United States is captured by the brutal DPRD secret police (the Salamanders) and is publicly drawn and quartered as an example to the rebellious 4-wheeler community.
Eighth, Four wheelers across the DPRD revolt. This becomes known as the the Moab Spring.
Ninth, The Moab Spring results in a return to democracy and restoration of the DPRD to the United States.
Tenth, A monument to the indomitable spirit of cruiseroutfit and his tenacious 4-Wheelers is built on the lip of The Wedge to remind future generations of the struggles to maintain freedom and liberty.
Eleventh, Take Back Utah movement begins to return control of Federal Lands in Utah to Utah.

 

[jackjoh]

Right Jack, we have been down this road over and over. Joseph claims Utah has "Constitutional stand against Fed ownership of land" and Utah's own constitution says otherwise. As I've detailed over and over, I know the Fed can return lands to the state through a congressional process but there is absolutely zero requirement or constitutional reasoning for them to do it. They won't... not happening so it is a waste of resources to continue down that road in my opinion.

I believe you are right but it seems like giving up.
So what you are saying is"give up let them do what they will do and take advantage of what you have while you can."
Most states do a better job because they are responsible to the citizens of the state. So you believe you have more control over the feds then the state politicians.
I have noted a left leaning tone to some of the posts. How many of you are democrats that voted for Obama? If you did you are getting what you voted for and if you think it is good I feel sorry for all of us.
Stephan, you do have a sense of humor.

 

[jackjoh]

I am repeating this from BRC and Brian Hawthorne because it and money are our best chances now.

Contact your Political Representatives: Tell your U.S. Representative
that reform is needed with our public land laws. The latest lawsuit by the
Southern Utah Wilderness Alliance shows access to vast areas of Utah's
scenic backcountry is at risk. Encourage them to step up and fight for our
rights to view and enjoy our public lands.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

I believe you are right but it seems like giving up.
So what you are saying is"give up let them do what they will do and take advantage of what you have while you can."
Most states do a better job because they are responsible to the citizens of the state. So you believe you have more control over the feds then the state politicians.
I have noted a left leaning tone to some of the posts. How many of you are democrats that voted for Obama? If you did you are getting what you voted for and if you think it is good I feel sorry for all of us.
Stephan, you do have a sense of humor.

I've not given up in whole, in fact I feel I'm personally getting more done on that front than U4 However I have given up (was never really on board) with this whole 'take back Utah' as it was all based on the assumption the state does have a legal standing to get it back, which the very politicians proposing the gimme proposal are clear to admit they do not. About the only thing we were told about the proposal is that lands would be sold, beyond that there was no management plan presented, etc. IMO it was 100% political posturing at the cost of tax payers... you know like the recent Mike Lee BS. Why continue wasting any more resources down that road? Instead, why not hit the ground running on the Richfield, Moab, Price, etc RMP's, find solutions if possible on the Richfield and start lobbying on the others to prevent a judge from doing the same thing there? What are we as users hearing about this stuff in the news rather than from the very groups that should have been in the court room when these decisions were argued?

No I did not vote for Obama, but I'm not sure what that has to do with anything either. There are not black/white sides on this Jack, though I wish it was. Do you think the Republicans are 100% about preserving motorized access? And expanded oil development? And mineral extraction? And livestock? And economic development? And all those don't interfere and in fact compromise the other? It is like the whole RS2477 issue, it is fantastic for the motorized community until they want to take that RS2477 'right' and pave a road that has historically been a fantastic off-road route. Not only does it impact said route but it also impacts all the neighboring routes that are not going to see far more traffic due to their proximity to the new paved route. A shade of grey I don't agree with and in fact have more in common with those "on the other side" than those standing up "for our cause" in those situations.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

I am repeating this from BRC and Brian Hawthorne because it and money are our best chances now.

Contact your Political Representatives: Tell your U.S. Representative
that reform is needed with our public land laws. The latest lawsuit by the
Southern Utah Wilderness Alliance shows access to vast areas of Utah's
scenic backcountry is at risk. Encourage them to step up and fight for our
rights to view and enjoy our public lands.

That we can 100% agree on! This lawsuit is without major merit imo and despite corralling a growing number of users onto smaller amount of trails... it wasn't enough for SUWA. Hence why we need our own Wilderness proposal. One and done, good by SUWA.

 

[jackjoh]

I've not given up in whole, in fact I feel I'm personally getting more done on that front than U4 However I have given up (was never really on board) with this whole 'take back Utah' as it was all based on the assumption the state does have a legal standing to get it back, which the very politicians proposing the gimme proposal are clear to admit they do not. About the only thing we were told about the proposal is that lands would be sold, beyond that there was no management plan presented, etc. IMO it was 100% political posturing at the cost of tax payers... you know like the recent Mike Lee BS. Why continue wasting any more resources down that road? Instead, why not hit the ground running on the Richfield, Moab, Price, etc RMP's, find solutions if possible on the Richfield and start lobbying on the others to prevent a judge from doing the same thing there? What are we as users hearing about this stuff in the news rather than from the very groups that should have been in the court room when these decisions were argued?

No I did not vote for Obama, but I'm not sure what that has to do with anything either. There are not black/white sides on this Jack, though I wish it was. Do you think the Republicans are 100% about preserving motorized access? And expanded oil development? And mineral extraction? And livestock? And economic development? And all those don't interfere and in fact compromise the other? It is like the whole RS2477 issue, it is fantastic for the motorized community until they want to take that RS2477 'right' and pave a road that has historically been a fantastic off-road route. Not only does it impact said route but it also impacts all the neighboring routes that are not going to see far more traffic due to their proximity to the new paved route. A shade of grey I don't agree with and in fact have more in common with those "on the other side" than those standing up "for our cause" in those situations.

X2 We agree on more so what is the answer. It looks like send money to BRC and let your politicians know what you believe. It is too bad USA-ALL did not work out and that U4 could not get people to step forward and take positions and follow through on them. I understand USA-ALL has the same problem with volunteers and the paid help was overwhelmed.

 

[JL Rockies]

Mike Lee is a [r]epublican which is very different than a Democrat. Don't know the difference? You might be part of the problem

BTW, I've heard many on here say "I'm going the wheel where I can, while I can".

I'm busy fixing FL now, but one final comment: SUWA is going to kick yous guys asses 'cause what you think you're doing separately because everyone else is wrong ain't working. Progressives are insidious, they don't negotiate, and they never give up... it took them more than 100 years to take over healthcare but they never lost sight of the prize.

I'll check in annually to see where the Fed will let me go in your state and plan my vacations accordingly.

Best of luck.


Kooler than Mudd.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Mike Lee is a [r]epublican which is very different than a Democrat. Don't know the difference? You might be part of the problem

Not sure where your drawing a conclusion there, I know very well Mike Lee is a Republican (it is the name of a party, hence the capitol). What is point?

BTW, I've heard many on here say "I'm going the wheel where I can, while I can".

Possibly because 'Takin' back Utah isn't giving them much hope'

I'm busy fixing FL now, but one final comment: SUWA is going to kick yous guys asses 'cause what you think you're doing separately because everyone else is wrong ain't working...

Ain't working eh? Pot meet kettle. We lost more ground in the last 5 years than the previous 20 and much of the quality trails at the hands of the very State you want controlling it all. Flawed plan.

 

[Stephen]

Mike Lee is a [r]epublican which is very different than a Democrat. Don't know the difference? You might be part of the problem

This is from the OED, which I'm sure is considered Liberal by some. (big "L", not little. If you don't know the difference, then you might be part of the problem.) So it's probably an unacceptable source.
_________________________

republican

adjective
(of a form of government, constitution, etc.) belonging to, or characteristic of a republic.
advocating or supporting republican government:
the republican movement

noun
1a person advocating or supporting republican government.
2 (Republican) a member or supporter of the Republican Party.
_________________________

And, echoing Kurt, Mike Lee is a Republican. And the worst kind, too. The kind that has a self serving agenda of aggrandizement. How'd that shutdown work out? Lots of publicity for Lee and Cruz with the hard right, but most of us in the country are moderates and we were none too pleased with the shutdown and the fact that it did nothing of value for us or the country.

BTW, I've heard many on here say "I'm going the wheel where I can, while I can".

Sure, I've heard that too. I think thats the wrong attitude to have. We've had some wins recently in the Deep Creeks that opened some old trails. Had the win down in Kane County a year or so ago. We're struggling with the current situation that started this thread, but I don't think most of us have lost hope.

I'm busy fixing FL now, but one final comment: SUWA is going to kick yous guys asses 'cause what you think you're doing separately because everyone else is wrong ain't working. Progressives are insidious, they don't negotiate, and they never give up... it took them more than 100 years to take over healthcare but they never lost sight of the prize.

Well thats a negative attitude!

I think that we have been rather successful NOT following the guide of some of the groups that popped up over the years. USA-All became a one man's show (and piggy bank). U4 can't seem to keep it's lights on and when it does, I rarely see it focusing on Land Use issues in any salient fashion. BRC, for all its hard work, is too small and stretched to put Utah at the center of it's strategy.

A lot of people, yes individuals and small groups, have been working hard to preserve areas that they feel are important. Far more that I think many are aware. Sometimes this is the way things have to be done. SUWA has the benefit of being able to show pretty pictures to the mole people who don't have drivers licenses and "live" in New York to garner support. People who actually recreate in Utah, well, spend their time recreating! All their spare time and money goes to enjoying life. So cornering them and begging for money rarely works until that little part of Utah they love becomes threatened. Yes, its knee-jerk rather than strategic, but thats what we have to live with. And sometimes you get a Don Black or Kurt Williams out of it who tirelessly work to keep areas open.

I'll check in annually to see where the Fed will let me go in your state and plan my vacations accordingly.

Joseph, I've always considered you a friend, but sometimes you are so damn negative it's sickening.

The biggest problem facing the US today isn't ObamaCare, isn't SUWA, isn't Progressivism; it's partisanship. When people are unwilling to look across the aisle and say, "You know, your point D and my point R are pretty close. What can we do to find a compromise?" Then we have a major problem. The Tea Party is every bit as much of the problem as Progressives.

 

[jackjoh]

The biggest problem facing the US today is not partisanship. Dr. Walter E. Williams says it better then I can.
http://hosted.verticalresponse.com/1429409/d3125a214b/578744835/85b926880e/

 

[jackjoh]

This is another article that shows States can do a better job then the Federal government.
http://www.nohvcc.org/Materials/New...03124_November+2013&utm_term=Read+more#manage

 

[mbryson]

This is another article that shows States can do a better job then the Federal government.
http://www.nohvcc.org/Materials/New...03124_November+2013&utm_term=Read+more#manage

Jack, do you really trust our state legislators to look out for recreation over natural resource extraction. There's no way in hell those greasy pigs will not sell off the whole of any lands worth protecting!

 

[JL Rockies]

Do you really trust that the Fed won't sell drilling rights to the Chinese when the schiz hits the fan? Do you really believe that it hasn't been the back up plan for a very long time? Do you really believe that's not why people loan us $ in the first place? Do you really believe that when it happens you can throw a brick through a window in DC from where you are now?
What has anyone in DC done to earn your trust?



Kooler than Mudd.

 

[mbryson]

Do you really trust that the Fed won't sell drilling rights to the Chinese when the schiz hits the fan? Do you really believe that it hasn't been the back up plan for a very long time? Do you really believe that's not why people loan us $ in the first place? Do you really believe that when it happens you can throw a brick through a window in DC from where you are now?
What has anyone in DC done to earn your trust?



Kooler than Mudd.

No real trust on the federal level either but the state will sell the properties off quickly

 

[jackjoh]

Even though the opposite has been proven in California and Washington States?

 

[Skylinerider]

Oh come on. The only proposal I've seen by the state clearly states that they will sell off part of the public lands. Why would you think they wouldn't do what they propose and then some.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Even though the opposite has been proven in California and Washington States?

To what are you referring? California (state) was facing closure of 70 State Parks until groups stepped in to stop closure in 65/70 of those parts just last year (2012). Do tell what your referring to.

 

[jackjoh]

To what are you referring? California (state) was facing closure of 70 State Parks until groups stepped in to stop closure in 65/70 of those parts just last year (2012). Do tell what your referring to.

Just what you are saying because it was State run 65/70 were saved because of action by the state people. We have not been that successful with the Feds.

Also look at the RS2477 roads that have been opened in the State by State/County action. I do not think you can name that many opened by the Feds.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Just what you are saying because it was State run 65/70 were saved because of action by the state people. We have not been that successful with the Feds.

Also look at the RS2477 roads that have been opened in the State by State/County action. I do not think you can name that many opened by the Feds.

Lemme get this straight. The State of California (zero involvement from the Fed) announces they can't afford to keep 70 State Parks open (as has been happening all over the west including Utah) and the people rally, form groups to fight the State's closure announcement, find funding sources, etc and in the end are able to save or partially keep open 65 (5 still closed) and this was a win for the State versus the Fed. Help me connect the dots here Jack.

Please name a road re-opened under RS2477 by County/State. Then I will give you a list of the roads closed or paved by the County/State. Wanna guess who's will have more? Again, the Fed agreeing to give Federal lands to Utah (with zero legal requirement) could be fantastic for motorized users and it could also be horrible... we just don't have enough information to say one way or another and given it will never happen and if it did happen the State has already given us all reasoning to believe they will be selling off land (= bad for motorized users), I don't see why anyone continues to waste limited manpower on this of all fights. There are sooooo many better angles to work the land use battle and yet so many seem to have chosen the least likely and least practical option? To top it off you then wonder why nobody wants to be involved. I may be off-kilter but it is painfully apparent to me.

I'll re-join the BOD of U4WDA and bring any and all I can talk into it with me if/when the same criteria is met that made me leave in the first place. Ever BOD member becomes an active Tread Trainer, every BOD members plans an NPLD project, ever BOD member take a Land Use Contact assignment and follow-though with those contacts quarterly and lastly every BOD member comment/participate on MVUM/RMP projects. The hat pins, stickers, parades and raffles can comes secondary and only secondary to the primary needs of a true state 4x4 Association.

 

[jackjoh]

Lemme get this straight. The State of California (zero involvement from the Fed) announces they can't afford to keep 70 State Parks open (as has been happening all over the west including Utah) and the people rally, form groups to fight the State's closure announcement, find funding sources, etc and in the end are able to save or partially keep open 65 (5 still closed) and this was a win for the State versus the Fed. Help me connect the dots here Jack. When the state gets money they will open the others. When the fed closes they are closed.

Please name a road re-opened under RS2477 by County/State. Then I will give you a list of the roads closed or paved by the County/State. Wanna guess who's will have more? Again, the Fed agreeing to give Federal lands to Utah (with zero legal requirement) could be fantastic for motorized users and it could also be horrible... we just don't have enough information to say one way or another and given it will never happen and if it did happen the State has already given us all reasoning to believe they will be selling off land (= bad for motorized users), I don't see why anyone continues to waste limited manpower on this of all fights. There are sooooo many better angles to work the land use battle and yet so many seem to have chosen the least likely and least practical option? To top it off you then wonder why nobody wants to be involved. I may be off-kilter but it is painfully apparent to me. See this link http://www.ksl.com/?sid=26511063&ni...ness-roads-in-utah&fm=home_page&s_cid=queue-1

I'll re-join the BOD of U4WDA and bring any and all I can talk into it with me if/when the same criteria is met that made me leave in the first place. Ever BOD member becomes an active Tread Trainer, every BOD members plans an NPLD project, ever BOD member take a Land Use Contact assignment and follow-though with those contacts quarterly and lastly every BOD member comment/participate on MVUM/RMP projects. The hat pins, stickers, parades and raffles can comes secondary and only secondary to the primary needs of a true state 4x4 Association.

A state association is just that, an association of like minded people that come together for a common purpose. What you are asking is impossible because all people do not have the same families, incomes, jobs, and interests. U4 does not just represent land use, USA-ALL tried that and no one would join the fight so look where they are now. U4 is an association of clubs that have many interests and each one of those interests get attention when attention is supported by the membership. If we do not have a Land Use person, and we do not, it will have to suffer from occasional attention as someone else steps in above and beyond their present duties. I wish you would join U4 and become our Land Use person. It would really help.