Air Shox and Body Roll

[mswasey]

I need to address some body roll issues. I have a 74 Bronco with 4link front and rear, I used Fox 2.5's on the front and Fox 2.0's on the rear with a sway bar on the rear. Everything works great except I get bad body roll in off camber situations, where the uphill side unloads clear to the limit strap and feels really ugly. I left the 2.0's valving and oil level the way they came (can't remember the valving, they came from Rock Logic a few years ago) but the 2.5's I lightened up to 30/70 which worked great.
I've heard "add oil" and Fox says add 30cc of oil to the 2.0's but the 2.5's come with max oil volume so I can't add any???
Fox also says stiffen up both front and rear to 40/90.
Any suggestions?

 

[Vonski]

If you don't have atleast one "anti-rock type" sway-bar of some kind, I'm afraid you'll be fighting a losing battle. In most cases, you'll have a difficult time finding room to put one up front, so settling for one just in the rear is the way it will have to be.

As far as the addition of oil to your shocks, two things will happen... Your rig will ride more stiff and it will seem to help your body roll/stability issue maybe a slight amount, but not enough make much of a difference.

 

[rockdog]

I have the same issue on my toyota. Fox 2" all the way around. I will defiantly find a way to run another sway bar in the front.
I broke the links to the rear one coming of the rim on the first trip out. Dear God, I thought I was going to die before we got off there without any sway bar at all.

 

[mswasey]

Yea, my trip last week coming off The Rim is what prompted me to do smething about mine. I have a Currie Anti Rock sway bar on the rear, but it doesn't do enough. I don't think I can make room for another on the front. Can I add oil to the 2.5's? I thought I would give it a try since it is the least $ step first.
Von it is good to hear from you, I haven't taked to you in quite a while. You don't think adding oil and/or changing my valving would make a noticeable enough difference other than in ride quality?

 

[Bart]

I am running that same combination, 2.5s in the front and 2.0s in the rear with a Currie sway bar in the rear. Mine works great, so I'm thinking you may have another problem. Just for giggles, are you running a spool in the rear? If so, that is your culprit. If not, I'd bet it's your geometry.

 

[Vonski]

Yea, my trip last week coming off The Rim is what prompted me to do smething about mine. I have a Currie Anti Rock sway bar on the rear, but it doesn't do enough. I don't think I can make room for another on the front. Can I add oil to the 2.5's? I thought I would give it a try since it is the least $ step first.
Von it is good to hear from you, I haven't taked to you in quite a while. You don't think adding oil and/or changing my valving would make a noticeable enough difference other than in ride quality?

If you can, post up pics of your Antirock setup. I'm thinking that it could be made to work alot better than what you're describing.

As far as adding oil goes, its cheap and easy, so you could experiment with it. It may band-aid the problem a little or make it seem less noticeable, but it certainly won't solve the issue.

 

[notajeep]

Do you have a front winch? If so, hook it to your front axle and use that as a poor mans swaybar. Suck it down when you need it, like coming dowm the rim, and use it as an adjustable limit strap the rest of the time.

 

[mswasey]

Hmmm.....I didn't think about the spool. I am running a spool in the rear and it loads the suspension in some weird ways when I'm on the driveway or turning on the road. Do you think a Detroit would not load it like that? Maybe not since it would not be engauged when in off throttle situations.
I use my winch now on the front which helps, I'm just trying to figure out a solution with a long term fix.
Thank you all for your input.

 

[drtsqrl]

I've built two Samurai buggys, one using Fox 2.0's and the other with S-A-W 2.0's. Neither one has sway bars, and they are both very stable. When I first did mine (with the Fox's), it unloaded quite badly my first trip on Moab Rim. When I checked the oil level, I found that each shock had less than the recommended amount of oil, and the oil level was different in each shock. I drained them, and refilled with 60cc more than "standard", and they have been fine ever since, although they do ride a bit rougher than before.

On the second (friend's) rig, I also found that the oil levels were inconsistant between shocks, and I drained and refilled each one with about 40 cc's more oil than stock before we ever drove it. His rig is one of the most stable rigs I have ever seen, short of some purpose-built full buggys.

In my limited experience, I believe that proper suspension geometry and shock placement are key. Both of the rigs are also fairly lightweight (3000 to 3300 lbs), and are set up with minimal lift and a fairly wide stance. The shocks are also mounted as far outboard as possible. I'm by no means an expert, and maybe I just got lucky, but it is possible to make an air shock suspension work well.

 

[mswasey]

Here are some pics of my sway bar. I am open for suggestions of how to make it work better for my application. There are a couple of holes in the arms closer to the torsion bar that I can tighten it a little more, and I could drill holes even closer if that would help even more.
Drtsqrl thanks for the input, I can put up with a little rougher ride to help overcome some body roll. My rig is pretty heavy, around 4500lbs. My shocks are outboard as far as possible, I tried to keep my rig as low as possible too (although I would love to have it even lower). I used a 4-link calculator along with input from lots of people, especially Von, Carl and Kyle who were at Rock Logic at the time. I am far from an expert as well, but this configuration has been working great for about 5 years now and I have no issues whatsoever on 95% of the obstacles I encounter. My last trip up The Rim just pushed me to do something about this terrible feeling!

 

[drtsqrl]

It sure looks and sounds like it was well thought out. In the pics, it looks like you might be able to move the lower rear shock mounts out a little bit, but I'm not sure if it would be enough to help much. Have you always had an issue with excessive body roll, or is this something new? If it's new, then what has changed to cause it? Also, I can't tell if you have a center limit strap, but that along with the ability to "suck down" the front axle with my winch seems to help a lot in those extremely off-camber situations.

 

[mswasey]

This is a condition that I have had from day one with this suspension. I drove it around the block without any sway bar at all, came home and immediately measured and calculated for a sway bar! I do have a center limit strap that only allows the center to droop about 3" which is plenty for me.
The rear shock mounts are outboard as far as they can be with my current set up. At full droop on one side and full stuff on the other, the nubs on the tire just brush the shock on the stuff side. On the droop side, the shock is about the thickness of paint away from the frame. Really limited with this configuration with a stock frame, I guess I could use wheel spacers for a tiny bit more room to move the bottom of the shock....but that would be a last resort.
I will have to use my winch more in the off camber situations, that really does help.

 

[rockreligious]

I am running that same combination, 2.5s in the front and 2.0s in the rear with a Currie sway bar in the rear. Mine works great, so I'm thinking you may have another problem. Just for giggles, are you running a spool in the rear? If so, that is your culprit. If not, I'd bet it's your geometry.

dang Bart, I didnt want to hear this, I just Installed a spool on mine with 2.0's in all four corners, I got a anti-sway and Im hoping to put it in the front, hope the spool dont spoil things for me.

Swasey, what ya been up to, you dont call, you dont write, you dont drop by anymore....do you still come down this way? If ya do you should drop by.

 

[bryson]

From the pics, it looks to me like you still have a couple holes on the anti-rock arms that are closer to the swaybar itself. Move the top of the link closer towards the swaybar and that will stiffen it up quite a bit.

Got any pics that show the suspension geometry better?

Also, the 2" shocks in the rear might not be up to the job no matter how much oil you put in them. How much sprung weight are the rear shocks holding up?

 

[rockdog]

I think rig weight is a big factor here also. Your running a full bodied bronco. I'm running a damn heavy toy. I think that has a lot to do with it. Barts buggy probably weighs half what our rigs weigh.
My links are set up so they have very little upward angle on em. and uppers and lowers are almost parallel. I have a detroit in front and rear.
As suggested above, you could try going shorter on your link arms. I did this and it helped some.

 

[Jinx]

As suggested above, you could try going shorter on your link arms. I did this and it helped some.

this makes sense, less leveage on the spring bar...

 

[mswasey]

I too think weight is a big factor, I don't know for sure but I think my sprung weight on the rear would be somewhere around 600 lbs at each corner with my gear inside.
Here are some pics of my suspension, the rear has about 6" of separation at the frame end and about 8" of separation at the axle end.
I probably need to tighten my sway bar the 2 holes I have and try it to see of it makes a noticeable difference, then move to more oil in at the rears shocks (maybe try a little more oil in the front too) as a next step.

 

[Jinx]

that is some serious exhaust work...

 

[camel]

Hey, mike I think everybody brings up valid points, but I think Barts theory on the spoon might be pretty plausable, because when you sidehill and your suspension unloads on one side its kind of like a skateboard so the wheels on the downhill side (underload) become further apart and the uphill side get closer, and the spoon doesnt allow any slip in the diff. forcing the uphill side tire to try and walk under the vehicle further causing the vehicle to unload the uphill suspension. But I have also read that adding oil and lowering preasure may reduce the body roll. Good luck, I'll let ya know how mine work out this weekend (memorial) cause I'll running similar setup for the first time. Buy the way if yq don't recognize my user name, this is JC

 

[mswasey]

Hey Jinx, yea the exhaust....big plug for Kent's Muffler and Brake in Draper. Kent is VERY patient and understanding when you cut off his previous work and go in saying "now what can you do for me?"

Camel, thanks for clarifying as I would have never guessed. The spool thoery makes sense to me too, I just need some hours and lots of cash to prove it! Let me know how your weekend goes.