Point is, he shouldn't have to answer any of their questions and they should know that. And yes, argumentative was a bad choice on his part. Should have kept quite on all accounts other than asking if he was being detained and if so to provide an answer as to why. Officers shouldn't be able to come up you on a hunch and accuse you of something. That's the part that really pisses me off. But as Kurt pointed out earlier - we don't know of anything before this video started. I assume nothing much because the officer didn't make any other accusations other than "smoking".
Am I Being Detained?
- Thread starter Herzog
- Start date
Point is, he shouldn't have to answer any of their questions and they should know that. And yes, argumentative was a bad choice on his part. Should have kept quite on all accounts other than asking if he was being detained and if so to provide an answer as to why. Officers shouldn't be able to come up you on a hunch and accuse you of something. That's the part that really pisses me off. But as Kurt pointed out earlier - we don't know of anything before this video started. I assume nothing much because the officer didn't make any other accusations other than "smoking".
It really shouldn't matter one bit, cops are still bound by the law.
What if you felt you were being harassed and were cited for being less that thrilled about the situation? It's completely unethical.
As far as this video goes though, who knows maybe he was smoking while loitering.
Tonkaman
Well-Known Member
- Location
- West Jordan
So I'm curious about signing the citation. Doesn't signing it just say you agree to pay or appear in court? What really happens if you refuse to sign?
Signing says you promise to appear, by not signing the take you in. Best to sign
I still don't see what the cop did that was against the law.. He was told he was being held for loitering. The way I see it, she was checking his record, and she could do it there, or in the jail house.
It's not against the law for the police to ask questions, or detain a person within suspicion. It's their job.
There are plenty of videos showing abuse by cop.. I don't see a ounce of it here.
jentzschman
Well-Known Member
- Location
- Sandy, Utah
I like the video steve posted! This is exactly what one should do in EVERY situation with a "peace officer"
I understand there are police on this board, and I hope to not offend, but this type of crap from police is one reason why I distrust police as a whole.
Yes, this guys was being a jerk and he should have NEVER given his ID to her. He should have also reminded her that as a servant of the public, police ARE required to answer questions from us. Notice how she refused to answer him on what crime he committed and why he was being detained? This type of hypocrisy from police is another example of why it is difficult to trust them.
I understand there are police on this board, and I hope to not offend, but this type of crap from police is one reason why I distrust police as a whole.
Yes, this guys was being a jerk and he should have NEVER given his ID to her. He should have also reminded her that as a servant of the public, police ARE required to answer questions from us. Notice how she refused to answer him on what crime he committed and why he was being detained? This type of hypocrisy from police is another example of why it is difficult to trust them.
jentzschman
Well-Known Member
- Location
- Sandy, Utah
Can you state for certainty that no action would have been taken?
Remember, we as citizens are not here to make police officers jobs easy, as they would have us believe in so many of these types of videos. Our job is to protect OUR rights. No, that does no mean be an ass to them, but respect is earned, not simple dished out.
Last edited:
airmanwilliams
Well-Known Member
- Location
- Provo, Utah
Can I get a ticket for loitering in a park?
jentzschman
Well-Known Member
- Location
- Sandy, Utah
Can I get a ticket for loitering in a park?
Ya, that crap from the male cop was BS!!! What proof do they have of loitering? The things these cops make up!
I've had pretty good luck with the strategy of being respectful to leo's but more than anything I just avoid ever putting myself in a situation with law enforcement.
Maybe I am naive (no tin foil hat here) but I don't get the whole every cop is a jerk and out to get me stuff. Are there jerk cops out there? Undoubtedly. I don't write them all off though.
All that aside- in general I find that if you're respectful and kind to others you're more likely to get a good response out of them. "I don't talk to cops" is an interesting attitude that makes me think that person has had a lot of interaction with them.
Maybe I am naive (no tin foil hat here) but I don't get the whole every cop is a jerk and out to get me stuff. Are there jerk cops out there? Undoubtedly. I don't write them all off though.
All that aside- in general I find that if you're respectful and kind to others you're more likely to get a good response out of them. "I don't talk to cops" is an interesting attitude that makes me think that person has had a lot of interaction with them.
- Location
- Sandy, Ut
Under what pretense does he not need to show ID to an officer on private property (while Trax is owned by the State of Utah, it is managed and policed as private). Those of you saying "never give your ID", do you NOT give your ID or CCW to an officer when they pull you over in your car? What is different there? The state of Utah has a clear "stop and identify" statute and those statutes have been upheld by the Supreme Court. Otherwise you offer police the right to take your right to jail. I'll take a warning or even a bogus ticket before I take a ride to jail in which if I continue to offer ID, I will be spending the night.
smartass_kid
Well-Known Member
- Location
- Cottonwood Heights, UT
****. that. guy. read that again.
we don't know what he was doing before the video started and he obviously has no respect for any kind of authority. he should also be able to treat anyone with respect, even if he doesn't like them at all. I need his address so I can mail him the $25 to cover the fine if he says he'll never come back to SLC.
we don't know what he was doing before the video started and he obviously has no respect for any kind of authority. he should also be able to treat anyone with respect, even if he doesn't like them at all. I need his address so I can mail him the $25 to cover the fine if he says he'll never come back to SLC.
TJDukit
I.Y.A.A.Y.A.S.
- Location
- Clearfield
Here's the statute.
77-7-15. Authority of peace officer to stop and question suspect -- Grounds.
A peace officer may stop any person in a public place when he has a reasonable suspicion to believe he has committed or is in the act of committing or is attempting to commit a public offense and may demand his name, address and an explanation of his actions.
So no if I am walking down the street and have not committed a crime or am not committing a crime I don't have to identify myself. I also am not required to carry identification with me unless I am concealed carrying or driving a car. Even in those situations you still are not required by law to identify yourself as a CCW holder and are not required to show your CCW or let them know you are carrying.
77-7-15. Authority of peace officer to stop and question suspect -- Grounds.
A peace officer may stop any person in a public place when he has a reasonable suspicion to believe he has committed or is in the act of committing or is attempting to commit a public offense and may demand his name, address and an explanation of his actions.
So no if I am walking down the street and have not committed a crime or am not committing a crime I don't have to identify myself. I also am not required to carry identification with me unless I am concealed carrying or driving a car. Even in those situations you still are not required by law to identify yourself as a CCW holder and are not required to show your CCW or let them know you are carrying.
jentzschman
Well-Known Member
- Location
- Sandy, Utah
I guess I should have been more clear in my thoughts.
77-7-15. Authority of peace officer to stop and question suspect -- Grounds.
A peace officer may stop any person in a public place when he has a reasonable suspicion to believe he has committed or is in the act of committing or is attempting to commit a public offense and may demand his name, address and an explanation of his actions.
Brian beat me and I agree on your thoughts after. Well said.
77-7-15. Authority of peace officer to stop and question suspect -- Grounds.
A peace officer may stop any person in a public place when he has a reasonable suspicion to believe he has committed or is in the act of committing or is attempting to commit a public offense and may demand his name, address and an explanation of his actions.
Brian beat me and I agree on your thoughts after. Well said.
- Location
- Sandy, Ut
What are you being clear about? Officer #1 clearly said she suspected him of smoking i.e. a public offense, therefore she has the right to demand his name, address and explanation of his actions. Furthermore didn't HB 497 make it law that officers had to check identification for immigration status?
Being stopped in a vehicle vs being stopped while walking is a different scenario, legally speaking. Same with private property (which you pointed out). I just think it's interesting how they seem to be hovering around the trax areas to turn some income for the city. It would be nice to be able to pay to have an officer to hang out on my front lawn all day.
This is good discussion with good view points.
According to the claim (as we don't know what happened before the video, but I'll repeat that the officer made no comment on anything prior to the video starting) he barely showed up and was going to meet a friend. Officer immediately came over and accused him of smoking. I'm afraid I wouldn't be so willing to answer any questions if this happened to me. Of course, I wouldn't be a douche and say many of the things that he did... but yea, sometimes the situations just come to you no matter.
It also blows my mind that this was over the accusation of smoking. I don't smoke, think it stinks... but wow. Next you'll hear we can't swear at ball games. (ha...)
But yea, it's not like they tased him.
skiboarder
SkiBoarder
- Location
- No Ogden
Reasonable suspicion of a crime. That's what this boils down to. That was not shown. She was profiling.
She states that she thought she saw him smoking.. Based on her statement she has suspicion.
What we are looking past here is that the police are in the area because of problems. Police do the same things day in and day out. They are pretty good at identifying problem sources. They spot a feller hanging out, not getting on a bus or train. Seems reasonable to ask a few questions to me.
When did 'profiling' become a bad thing?? We all do it every day. It is a part of our decision making.
In NY they are crying foul that 89% of stop-and-frisk (which I think is a horrible deal) suspects are black.. this must be racist! Or maybe, since 90% of the crime in the area is committed by blacks, and it's the blacks that are walking the streets looking like thugs, therefore being stopped!
The truth is that the majority of crimes all around the country are committed by minorities. This can only lead to one conclusion: Crime is racist, and should be illegal!
sixstringsteve
Well-Known Member
- Location
- UT
If he had admitted to smoking, what would his offense/punishment have been? Would he still have received a ticket for loitering? (I ask because I'm not sure.)
If he had been cooperative, I highly doubt he would have received a ticket for loitering (unless smoking is tied to loitering).
There's no doubt he should have had more respect and not mouthed off. However, his loitering "offense" was only brought up when they didn't like his attitude. Correct me if I'm wrong, but your attitude has nothing to do with loitering. He was either loitering before he mouthed off, or he wasn't. When he found out he was on private property he asked to leave, but he they didn't allow him to leave (detained), causing him to loiter/tresspass. It sounds more like a case of the LEOs not backing down untill they charge him with something.
If he had been cooperative, I highly doubt he would have received a ticket for loitering (unless smoking is tied to loitering).
There's no doubt he should have had more respect and not mouthed off. However, his loitering "offense" was only brought up when they didn't like his attitude. Correct me if I'm wrong, but your attitude has nothing to do with loitering. He was either loitering before he mouthed off, or he wasn't. When he found out he was on private property he asked to leave, but he they didn't allow him to leave (detained), causing him to loiter/tresspass. It sounds more like a case of the LEOs not backing down untill they charge him with something.