AZ Swat team kills Marine

[Herzog]

Anybody following this and think there's something just not right about it?

Apparently, owning some guns and body armor is enough to clear a swat team for unconstitutionally entering your home and killing you.

The Marine was armed to protect himself and his wife & child from the invaders and had enough control and trigger discipline to not fire when he discovered it was a swat team. The swat team didnt' return the favor and fired upon him.

This is the country we live in now? The swat team just got "cleared"...

http://abcnews.go.com/US/arizona-swat-team-cleared-marines-killing/story?id=13842029

 

[sixstringsteve]

Man, that's a sad story. If I heard someone banging down my door, you'd better believe I'd have my gun loaded and ready to fire at whoever walks through the door. I always wondered what would happen if someone didn't hear the swat team/police announce themselves prior to entering. I wonder how many of us are guilty of having "many" guns (aka 3 or more).

 

[1\4elliptic toy]

Douchebaggery at its finest.

 

[Greg]

Makes me sick, the guys that organized & carried out that mission should be held accountable, no questions asked.

 

[1\4elliptic toy]

Truly a sad, effed up situation, the Swat team and everyone that was involved in the raid were wrong. The guy was innocent, they shot and killed him and they get off? Way to go LEO intelligence operation.

 

[Herzog]

I guess the moral of the story is that if the swat comes a knockin kick'n down your door, don't hold your fire because they won't hold theirs...?

 

[gijohn40]

no the moral of the story is that if you recognize its swat put your weapon down so they do not have a reason to fire... they always shot first and ask questions later... so if you give them a reason to fire they will....

This is so f'd up and should never happen but it does...

 

[Herzog]

no the moral of the story is that if you recognize its swat put your weapon down so they do not have a reason to fire... they always shot first and ask questions later... so if you give them a reason to fire they will....

This is so f'd up and should never happen but it does...

There's talk that he did lower his weapon even though their claims that "damage to the fire-arm indicate it was pointed at them" but I'm not too sure I trust anything they are saying at this point just on how they are handling the case. For all we know, he lowered his fire-arm or never even had it aimed. Things still went south. What the hell was swat doing in his house in the first place mind I ask?

That could have been any one of us.

 

[SAMI]

I want to know what info the authorities had that led them to that address. I would be interested to know how concrete their "evidence" (suspicions) were.

This type of nonesense makes me want to finally make my front door very, very hard to breach. At the very least nobody would easily bust through the door, giving a few added moments to hopefully figure out what the hell is happeneing.

 

[Coco]

Whats really sad, and pisses me off more, is he was ex-military! He was fighting for our freedom, and this is how "officers" at that return the favor?! A drug raid?! They should've known he was ex-military, and the thought of weapons and armor was in the house. But he didn't fire a shot, and had the respect of law enforcement, but they didn't have the same respect... Bunch of BS

 

[Herzog]

Whats really sad, and pisses me off more, is he was ex-military! He was fighting for our freedom, and this is how "officers" at that return the favor?! A drug raid?! They should've known he was ex-military, and the thought of weapons and armor was in the house. But he didn't fire a shot, and had the respect of law enforcement, but they didn't have the same respect... Bunch of BS

Yep. He had the training and trigger discipline to not rip through the swat when they barged in. Too bad they (swat on scene) didn't share the same training or foresight.

 

[benjy]

It's hard to pass judgement on situations like this, especially from the media, but....

barrage of 71 bullets

REALLY??? That is 14 bullets/team member. They're using semi-auto, right? That seems excessive to me, but what do I know

I wonder how many of us are guilty of having "many" guns (aka 3 or more).

I thought the same thing

 

[benjy]

1 hour 14 minutes for paramedics to arrive on scene

 

[SAMI]

... But the coroner was probably outside waiting for approval to retrieve the body before SWAT even went in.

 

[roverrocks]

Murder, simply murder. Another St. Valentine's Day Massacre only this time it was "legal".

 

[Tacoma]

in an age of "no-knock" warrants issued on the basis of sketchy informants, you're going to have stuff like this happening. I was just talking to a member of an SL valley vice cop about this very thing... what happens when the cops kick in the wrong door on a no-knock warrant and get shot at? If the homeowner survives, how's that work out?

Armor your front door, and aim for the face. The militarization of cops has GOT to stop! There are other ways to get someone that has a warrant out that don't involve possibly kicking down the wrong door. The American principles of freedom DEMAND that we do better. I'd rather have a guy in the wind a couple days longer than have even one more wrongful shooting.

and they cleared the cops? That's absolute bullsh*t.

 

[brokejeep]

I happen to be on a SWAT team.....We don't just choose doors to knock down. It takes substantial evidence to obtain a warrant. First, you need probable cause. Next, attorneys review the case. Finally, it is signed by a judge prior to being approved.....
There had to be an imminent threat for SWAT to be serving the warrant in the first place.
It is sad to see that this former marine was a suspected drug dealer....

Remember a few months back in SLC when an active duty Army Soldier that was AWOL attempted to gain access to the Grand America tower in an attempt to injure and kill as many as possible??? He was armed with an AR15 that was equipped with an acog(and hundreds of rounds), two tack vests, and a ballistic helmet. An Officer was able to end his plan with a well-placed shot that saved countless lives. Everyone would be blaming the Police if the Army Soldier would have been successful. I have served warrants where the dealer had no drigs in their home. That is why the investigation happens prior to the warrant being served and not after. I am glad that no officers were injured during the warrant service.

Plain and simple, if you dont want SWAT knocking down your door-- obey the laws and don't deal drugs. Being a SWAT Officer is a dangerous job. I am glad no Officers were injured. It is a shame the former marine lost his life. My guess is any hesitation by the officers involved would have led to five funerals instead of one. None of the monday night quarterbacks can say exactly what the suspected drug dealers intentions were. Seems that the news needed a story and what you get is their understanding of what happened.

 

[sLcREX]

This is so wrong. I cant stand the things they can get away with and be cleared of it all. I hope they serve some punishment for this. To serve two tours in Iraq to be gunned down in his own house... Just terrible.

 

[Herzog]

Plain and simple, if you dont want SWAT knocking down your door-- obey the laws and don't deal drugs. Being a SWAT Officer is a dangerous job. I am glad no Officers were injured. It is a shame the former marine lost his life. My guess is any hesitation by the officers involved would have led to five funerals instead of one. None of the monday night quarterbacks can say exactly what the suspected drug dealers intentions were. Seems that the news needed a story and what you get is their understanding of what happened.

I respect you and what you do for a living but this mentality is just wrong. Too close to the "if you have nothing to hide they you have nothing to fear" mentality that is prevalent among many officers and even way too many citizens. I think it's horseshit. My response is that "if I have nothing to hide then you have no reason to look."

I'll admit that I let emotion take over logic in a few of my comments and that I do understand the need for what you guys do. But this story (and the others just like it) are getting all too common. In many of the statements given to by the dept you see them reaching on many things. Oh, he had a border patrol hat? He had armor? He had "many" (3) guns? He did "suspicious" things...? REALLY? These things make it OK after the fact? I don't buy it.

Now if I were in your position - I understand that you are going to do your job and do whatever it takes to go home to your family afterword. That's a whole different matter. However, the people who organized and authorized this raid should be put up for trial and taken care of.

I also believe that as a law abiding citizen (even the FBI seems to agree) that if ANYBODY comes kicking down my door and intends to use deadly force (or not, see castle law) that I have a right to defend myself and my family, no matter who they are. In my opinion - if he "had nothing to hide", the Marine should have fired first.

 

[Coco]

I happen to be on a SWAT team.....We don't just choose doors to knock down. It takes substantial evidence to obtain a warrant. First, you need probable cause. Next, attorneys review the case. Finally, it is signed by a judge prior to being approved.....
There had to be an imminent threat for SWAT to be serving the warrant in the first place.
It is sad to see that this former marine was a suspected drug dealer....

Remember a few months back in SLC when an active duty Army Soldier that was AWOL attempted to gain access to the Grand America tower in an attempt to injure and kill as many as possible??? He was armed with an AR15 that was equipped with an acog(and hundreds of rounds), two tack vests, and a ballistic helmet. An Officer was able to end his plan with a well-placed shot that saved countless lives. Everyone would be blaming the Police if the Army Soldier would have been successful. I have served warrants where the dealer had no drigs in their home. That is why the investigation happens prior to the warrant being served and not after. I am glad that no officers were injured during the warrant service.

Plain and simple, if you dont want SWAT knocking down your door-- obey the laws and don't deal drugs. Being a SWAT Officer is a dangerous job. I am glad no Officers were injured. It is a shame the former marine lost his life. My guess is any hesitation by the officers involved would have led to five funerals instead of one. None of the monday night quarterbacks can say exactly what the suspected drug dealers intentions were. Seems that the news needed a story and what you get is their understanding of what happened.

I can see your point clearly, and I have many family members, and close friends that are, or were active law enforcement. And I see that if they see a gun being pointed at them they have the action of deadly force, but they're are way too many "fishy" things in this story that makes me wonder what the real intentions of this was.

1. he was shot 71 times (If i remember correctly) Now if every officer was firing semi auto, that is a lot of trigger pulling by all officers, but once the guy is on the ground, wouldnt you think they would stop firing?? I just dont see the need for 70+ rounds being fired at one man.

2, paramedics didnt arrive for well over an hour after the shooting. Sure, maybe an investigation of some type was taking place, but that is a little cold blooded to wait that long.

Unfortunately yes stuff like this happens way too often. I remember not too long ago there was a big debate of a road pursuit/turned fatal shooting, where the family of the man shot released the dash cam footage of the whole thing. Long story short, the officers shot him through his closed window of his patrol car, after verbally warning him he was going to shoot him. (the suspect probably couldnt hear him between the officers window up, and all the sirens.) Then the amount of disrespect that came from officers after the shooting (audio on the dash cam video) it makes you wonder if there was other reasoning behind it.

But anyway, that is a totally different situation. I have the utmost respect for law enforcement coming from family history being around it, but I just feel this was a little over the line.