Bears??

TonyM

Charlie don't surf
Location
Alaska
Here's another article directly addressing the effectiveness of bear spray VS bullets.
http://www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie/species/mammals/grizzly/bear spray.pdf

Spoiler alert - Bear spray is better.

Believe me, I'm sure there are a ton studies out there that would have you conclude that bear spray is more effective in deterring bears than bullets are, especially from university academia... just one thing, its not true... and here's why..

There will always be a fundamental difference between the two, and in a life or death situation, with a bullet, or bullets, you can kill the animal 100% of the time. Whereas with bear spray, you are HOPING that the bear spray will deter the bear enough to save you or your families life... Also, in some cases, bear spray can mame the animal, and render his senses useless/damaged permanently... and unless you're going to finnish the job with a pointy stick, now you have a pissed off mamed griz roaming around in the woods...

It's a no brainer IMO... if you want to gamble with you and your families life, take bear spray. If you want to live 100% of the time... get a big bore revolver, or a large caliber pistol, learn how to use it comfortably, train, practice, and prepare for an encounter.


Carrying bear spray as a last resort isn't a bad idea... but don't make it your primary weapon or rely on it to save your life I guess is the moral of the story... IMO
 
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Rot Box

Diesel and Dust
Supporting Member
Location
Smithfield Utah
I stand with Tony on that one... I actually carry both mace and a high caliber revolver, but hope I will NEVER--EVER have to be in that situation to have to make that call. Its all personal preference at that point and many people feel more than comfortable with mace only. Its up to you to make that decision.

If you are considering a fire arm for protection read through this article: http://www.chuckhawks.com/firearms_defense_bears.htm There is a lot of useful advise.
 

Grim

Well-Known Member
Location
Roy, UT
Believe me, I'm sure there are a ton studies out there that would have you conclude that bear spray is more effective in deterring bears than bullets are, especially from university academia... just one thing, its not true... and here's why..

There will always be a fundamental difference between the two, and in a life or death situation, with a bullet, or bullets, you can kill the animal 100% of the time. Whereas with bear spray, you are HOPING that the bear spray will deter the bear enough to save you or your families life... Also, in some cases, bear spray can mame the animal, and render his senses useless/damaged permanently... and unless you're going to finnish the job with a pointy stick, now you have a pissed off mamed griz roaming around in the woods...

It's a no brainer IMO... if you want to gamble with you and your families life, take bear spray. If you want to live 100% of the time... get a big bore revolver, or a large caliber pistol, learn how to use it comfortably, train, practice, and prepare for an encounter.


Carrying bear spray as a last resort isn't a bad idea... but don't make it your primary weapon or rely on it to save your life I guess is the moral of the story... IMO

ill take someones word that actually lives in a highly populated bear area (and spends time in the outdoors), any day over a university "study"
 

TonyM

Charlie don't surf
Location
Alaska
I stand with Tony on that one... I actually carry both mace and a high caliber revolver, but hope I will NEVER--EVER have to be in that situation to have to make that call. Its all personal preference at that point and many people feel more than comfortable with mace only. Its up to you to make that decision.

If you are considering a fire arm for protection read through this article: http://www.chuckhawks.com/firearms_defense_bears.htm There is a lot of useful advise.

That is a good link... lots of good info there for sure.
 

redneckbronco

Active Member
Location
Provo
x2 on the Taking the word of someone that lives in those conditions over some study that is probly biased anyways not wanting to see an animal killed, only makes sense to me.
 

mesha

By endurance we conquer
Location
A.F.
If you need some bear spray I can hook you up. that stuff is crazy expensive.

I get studies and stories at work about how bear spray is more effective than a gun.

The funny thing is, I don't know one single person that lives around bears that actually carries bear spray, not one. I have spent a lot of time in Alaska and not one of the people I headed into the bush with carried mace. Saw a lot of bears too. I had mace with me the first time I backpacked there and the locals told me a joke about bear spray and bear bells(I am sure tony knows it). I don't carry spray there now and don't carry a gun either.

I do think that for people who aren't familiar with guns or doesn't have a huge amount of practice with the large caliber weapon should carry spray. I have customers ask me all the time if they should carry bear spray or a gun. I believe if you are asking the question you should carry spray. You wouldn't be asking if you had the ability to use the gun effectively. It is much easier to go buy a can of mace and use it to hit a bear than to buy a .454 casull and hit a bear. If you discharge the mace be prepared to be incapacitated for the next hour or so. If you miss the bear it will be longer than an hour;)

In summary I think they both have their place. hitting the bear with what ever you decide to carry is the most important part you will be scared and shaky. I am MUCH more worried about people bugging me than bears. I carry a gun for them.

If you kill a bear around here you will pay for it. No way to prove it wasn't a false charge. Unless it has you or someone your with in a jaw or something. Spray would be better in that regard, unless you are dead.
 

TonyM

Charlie don't surf
Location
Alaska
If you need some bear spray I can hook you up. that stuff is crazy expensive.

I get studies and stories at work about how bear spray is more effective than a gun.

The funny thing is, I don't know one single person that lives around bears that actually carries bear spray, not one. I have spent a lot of time in Alaska and not one of the people I headed into the bush with carried mace. Saw a lot of bears too. I had mace with me the first time I backpacked there and the locals told me a joke about bear spray and bear bells(I am sure tony knows it). I don't carry spray there now and don't carry a gun either.

I do think that for people who aren't familiar with guns or doesn't have a huge amount of practice with the large caliber weapon should carry spray. I have customers ask me all the time if they should carry bear spray or a gun. I believe if you are asking the question you should carry spray. You wouldn't be asking if you had the ability to use the gun effectively. It is much easier to go buy a can of mace and use it to hit a bear than to buy a .454 casull and hit a bear. If you discharge the mace be prepared to be incapacitated for the next hour or so. If you miss the bear it will be longer than an hour;)

In summary I think they both have their place. hitting the bear with what ever you decide to carry is the most important part you will be scared and shaky. I am MUCH more worried about people bugging me than bears. I carry a gun for them.

If you kill a bear around here you will pay for it. No way to prove it wasn't a false charge. Unless it has you or someone your with in a jaw or something. Spray would be better in that regard, unless you are dead.

I would agree with most of your premise...

Where I would disagree, is not using anything while in the woods where there are known to be large bears. Some people go there whole lives successfully in the woods, without ever encountering an apex predator. Is that skill? Is it luck? Maybe a little of both. I for one, will not leave my own safety, or that of my family/friends to any degree of luck, atleast not intentionally.

2nd, to say that using a firearm, such as the Casull, is not as easy as using bear spray... is a half truth. For some dipshit hippie greenie out of towner hitting REI before they head for the BUS out at Stampede (For those of you who don't know about the bus, read THIS, and THIS) then yes, bear spray (And Bells too for that matter:greg:) would be appropriate.

However, through practice and training, you can become just as proficient with a large caliber revolver, if not moreso, than someone with a spray bottle full of 2 party irritant, especially in a high adrenaline situation. Not only that, but you are assured a REAL chance to survive the encounter, because there is a REAL probability to neutralize the threat... not just irritate it.

I guess, for where most of you folks live, the fine thing for shooting a bear would be a deterrent for carrying a gun for bear protection, but again, regardless of a fine, knowing that my family was as safe as possible would be worth any penalty, especially if you actually found yourself in a situation where you're bear spray didn't work, and you had no choice but to discharge the firearm.

Again, IMO its a no brainer up here... If you're going to use bear spray, do not make it you're primary-sole line of defense. Make it Secondary or backup at best. Maybe for down in the states, that should be reversed... but under no circumstances would I EVER take the revolver out of the equation all together. If there were places that had bears/etc., and you weren't allowed to carry a firearm, I just wouldn't go there. My family's safety is not worth the risk.
 
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mesha

By endurance we conquer
Location
A.F.
I Agree that you can become proficient with a large revolver. I was talking anout the customers that come in and ask what they should carry. Your first thought is to a revolver because you can wield it. Most people who are asking could not. People don't come in 2 years before a trip and ask what they should do they come in one day in advance. I would then tell them to take spray. As far as carrying myself in alaska, that has mostly been for the sake the airlines and getting the gun there. I think the next time I go I will bother with the hassle. I agree with you. If you a person is good aith the gun then it should be carried. I still would not let my mom borrow a large gun from my and take it into the wilderness unless she was willing to practice before hand. She doesn't like guns and doesn't use them. It would do her no good to have along. She could learn to get good and if she lived in alaska probably would.
 

RockMonkey

Suddenly Enthusiastic
So how big a gun do you need to deter a bear? Will a 9mm with personal protection rounds do the trick, or do you need a .45? The video linked up above is actually really enlightening. You couldn't even see that bear before it was charging. There was only a second or two to react. Not long enough to draw a semi-automatic and chamber a round. If it's not loaded and cocked, it's useless in this situation. Given reaction time, and the speed at which a bear attack can happen, you're probably lucky to get one or two rounds off before the bear is on you and you have zero control of the situation. So, is one 9mm hollow point going to stop a bear? I'm betting it'll piss it off, at best.
 

Rot Box

Diesel and Dust
Supporting Member
Location
Smithfield Utah
So how big a gun do you need to deter a bear? Will a 9mm with personal protection rounds do the trick, or do you need a .45?

I would say .45 and the ability to shoot it accurately is a minimum if you plan to use a pistol for bear defense. I would not feel comfortable with a .38, 40 or 9mm personally. I carry a .357 magnum and I love its accuracy, but I'm really eying down the 454's and .44 mags for this type of use.
 

TonyM

Charlie don't surf
Location
Alaska
So how big a gun do you need to deter a bear? Will a 9mm with personal protection rounds do the trick, or do you need a .45? The video linked up above is actually really enlightening. You couldn't even see that bear before it was charging. There was only a second or two to react. Not long enough to draw a semi-automatic and chamber a round. If it's not loaded and cocked, it's useless in this situation. Given reaction time, and the speed at which a bear attack can happen, you're probably lucky to get one or two rounds off before the bear is on you and you have zero control of the situation. So, is one 9mm hollow point going to stop a bear? I'm betting it'll piss it off, at best.

I'm telling you, you cannot watch that video enough. You are exactly right. 1-2 shots is about all you're going to get typically. Personally, I wouldn't use a pistol, because although not common, the tendency to jam, or ftf, is much higher than a revolver. That being said, it is MORE important that whatever you use, you can use proficiently.

If you can fir 8-9 rounds of 9mm into a 3"-4" section of a bears neck or muzzle in about 3 seconds.... the 9mm would prob deter the bear, and even kill it.... but I don't even think Steven Segal is pulling that off...lol

If you're going to go with a pistol... I like the 10mm... I'm not as accurate with mine as I wish I was... it's more of a range whore... but they make some pretty hot/heavy ammo for it.

If you can stand it though... look for a revolver that feels good (I hope I don't offend anyone, but I can't stand the Ruger redhawk/super redhawk in ANY caliber) in .44 mag. IMO, that is about the minimum round I would count on in the woods... some guys I know won't even take one of those, they say bigger. 44 mag is cheap (Look at the Taurus Tracker in 44 mag... I love mine, and I got it new for $550), ammo is plenty available, and there are TONS of differnet makes of it... There is a link posted previously that has a lot of good general info regarding this as well...
 

SAMI

Formerly Beardy McGee
Location
SLC, UT
Braden also mentioned 'personal protection rounds'.. From what I understand, no, you don't want a hydrashok, or hollow point for bear duty. Those rounds are made to maximize damage in soft tissue, and not penetrating thick bone. I would imagine a ball, or FMJ round to be better at penatrating a bear's thick skull than any hollow point round.

I'm not well educated in the real-world bear protection.. This is just what makes sense to me. ;)
 

mesha

By endurance we conquer
Location
A.F.
For sure FMJ is better for the bears coming out a a smaller caliber. Most say a magnum caliber of at least .357 is a good place to start. For bigger bears like in alaska a .44 mag is minimum. .454 casull will go from front to hip in many bears and that will really stop them. Plus you can start with .45 long colts on the range to get some practice. I want an air weight .44 mag for the bears in utah. Right now I usually have my .40 with FMJ and HP staggered.
 

redneckbronco

Active Member
Location
Provo
Wow! Turned out to be a good question, with lots of good info. I have no problems using guns, and have plenty of shooting xperience, just never had the need to own a gun and even after reading all of this will still have to make that decision. But it will be a good future investment. In the mean time I will be getting some Bear spray in the mean time tho.
 

DAA

Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
I'll be spending the next six nights in a tent, by myself, in a camp I've had a black bear trash once already and have seen bears within shouting distance of camp numerous times. Including one within a few hundred yards of the tent last year.

I can't wait to be there :D.

- DAA
 

TonyM

Charlie don't surf
Location
Alaska
TTT... Bears are more interesting than Mosque's IMO.... :rofl:

These are from Kodiak Island... taken from a recent trip report posted on another local AK forum...

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RockMonkey

Suddenly Enthusiastic
Wow, cool pics.

Now I have to decide why I'm camping with a gun. If it's to protect me from people, I want it loaded with hollow points. If it's for bears, I need to be packing FMJ rounds.

I think I'll keep the hollow points in it.

Mesha, you mentioned you could get me a deal on some bear spray? PM or post some deals. I've been meaning to get some.
 
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