Bears??

[TonyM]

Wow, cool pics.

Now I have to decide why I'm camping with a gun. If it's to protect me from people, I want it loaded with hollow points. If it's for bears, I need to be packing FMJ rounds.

I think I'll keep the hollow points in it.

Mesha, you mentioned you could get me a deal on some bear spray? PM or post some deals. I've been meaning to get some.

I would imagine the rule of thumb is, if it will work on a bear, it will prob work on a person as well...lol

You're personal protection rounds are low velocity, highly fragmenting rounds. These are designed to be used in a home, or some other close quarter situation where there are other people around... and to minimize possible collateral damage, the rounds are dumbed down accordingly.

The thing about a partitioned round, or even a FMJ round... is it will be the best possible chance to surviving an encounter... and will still kill/mame a human just the same. They also tend to be cheaper than there PP counterparts.

PP rounds just would not make any sense in a woods type environment IMO... :-\

 

[Greg]

Just to add to the controversy...

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/07/28/earlyshow/main6720870.shtml

 

[TonyM]

Just to add to the controversy...

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/07/28/earlyshow/main6720870.shtml

There is no controversy really... the bottom line is Pepper spray does not kill bears, and guns do. The only way to %100 percent of the time neutralize a threat from an apex predator is to kill it... It's that simple.

The reason why that is such a big story (Made CNN and all), is not only that it was Jack Hannah, but that the pepper spray actually worked IMO.

Bears get killed up here all the time in SUCCESSFUL self defense of property and life with GUNS.. but it never makes the news, because it is quite common. Again, if someone used bear spray to ward off three bears, it is news... because it's just not that likely, and not NEARLY as common IMO....

 

[RockMonkey]

So... Why does it seem like some people don't want bear spray to be effective? All the objective research I've seen says that you're less likely to be injured in an encounter with a bear if you carry bear spray, instead of a handgun. Why is there such resistance? Are there objective studies out there that have come to the opposite conclusion? I would feel more secure carrying a gun too, but if all the evidence says that's the wrong decision, I'll carry bear spray.

The earth sure as hell looks flat from here, but I can accept that it's not.

 

[capt scotty]

Last week we ran the Rubicon. One of the guys in our group threw a strap over a tree branch then used his winch to pull his cooler and food bag up about 20 ft from the ground. You would be better off shooting yourself with the 22 than trying to stop a charging bear!!!!Have fun, Good luck with the "away from other people" part.

 

[Caleb]

So... Why does it seem like some people don't want bear spray to be effective? All the objective research I've seen says that you're less likely to be injured in an encounter with a bear if you carry bear spray, instead of a handgun. Why is there such resistance? Are there objective studies out there that have come to the opposite conclusion? I would feel more secure carrying a gun too, but if all the evidence says that's the wrong decision, I'll carry bear spray.

The earth sure as hell looks flat from here, but I can accept that it's not.

Everything I've read has said the same thing. There's also a difference between Utah and Alaska...as mentioned, you shoot a bear here and you will atleast see a fine. In the mountains around here, I think if I carried anything, bear spray would be my choice of weapon.

Here is some good info on bear spray, including some good facts about bear spray vs. firearms in defense. http://adventure.howstuffworks.com/bear-spray.htm I know, it's no where near as macho to have bear spray as it it to carry a big ol' gun.

 

[TonyM]

So... Why does it seem like some people don't want bear spray to be effective? All the objective research I've seen says that you're less likely to be injured in an encounter with a bear if you carry bear spray, instead of a handgun. Why is there such resistance? Are there objective studies out there that have come to the opposite conclusion? I would feel more secure carrying a gun too, but if all the evidence says that's the wrong decision, I'll carry bear spray.

The earth sure as hell looks flat from here, but I can accept that it's not.

I'm confused... do you really need a study that says using a gun kills bears if utilized properly and deployed effectively? I don't want to say it but... where I come from, thats called common sense... :-\

If you are uncomfortable using a gun in that kind of scenario, or are concerned about your ability to do so, than FOR SURE bear spray is your best weapon of choice...

My point, that I feel I have articulated down to kindergarten standards at this point, is that pepper spray won't kill a bear, and sometimes, killing a bear is the only method of neutralization that will save you and/or your families life. I don't rely on the fact that SOMETIMES the bear DOESN'T need to be killed, because that assumption could cost me or my family/friends our lives... with a properly deployed firearm, your chances of a tragedy are slim to none (I use the word slim, because of course, there are exceptions).

Again, where I come from, this is common knowledge, and it did not take a study of any kind to come to that conclusion... COMMON SENSE comes to mind.

 

[TonyM]

Everything I've read has said the same thing. There's also a difference between Utah and Alaska...as mentioned, you shoot a bear here and you will atleast see a fine. In the mountains around here, I think if I carried anything, bear spray would be my choice of weapon.

Here is some good info on bear spray, including some good facts about bear spray vs. firearms in defense. http://adventure.howstuffworks.com/bear-spray.htm I know, it's no where near as macho to have bear spray as it it to carry a big ol' gun.

Macho? I guess my last post was for you too.... :-\ Please read the above post... as it pretty much covers your post as well... :greg:

Again, THERE IS NO DOUBT... THAT IF YOU CANNOT EFFECTIVELY WIELD A FIREARM IN HIGH STRESS SITUATIONS.... YOU SHOULD USE BEAR SPRAY TO DEFEND YOURSELVES AGAINST BEARS... sheesh...


Edit:

Here is a bukku easy lamens version of what my point is in regard to bear defense:

Pepper spray WILL NOT kill a bear. If you are in a situation where YOU NEED to kill a bear to save you or your families life because the pepper spray didn't deter the bear completely, and all you have is pepper spray.... then what?

 

[Caleb]

Macho? I guess my last post was for you too.... :-\ Please read the above post... as it pretty much covers your post as well... :greg:

Again, THERE IS NO DOUBT... THAT IF YOU CANNOT EFFECTIVELY WIELD A FIREARM IN HIGH STRESS SITUATIONS.... YOU SHOULD USE BEAR SPRAY TO DEFEND YOURSELVES AGAINST BEARS... sheesh...


Edit:

Here is a bukku easy lamens version of what my point is in regard to bear defense:

Pepper spray WILL NOT kill a bear. If you are in a situation where YOU NEED to kill a bear to save you or your families life because the pepper spray didn't deter the bear completely, and all you have is pepper spray.... then what?

Reading comprehension???

Utah vs. Alaska There's a lot of what ifs...

Show me the facts that a gun is more effective. I've given you the link to prove bear spray is more effective...prove me wrong. I don't want your opinion or your "common sense".

 

[TonyM]

Reading comprehension???

Utah vs. Alaska There's a lot of what ifs...

Show me the facts that a gun is more effective. I've given you the link to prove bear spray is more effective...prove me wrong. I don't want your opinion or your "common sense".

"Effective" at what? Do you really need a link to prove that guns kill bears? Are you really insinuating that pepper spray will deter a bear %100 of the time? Are you insinuating that there could not possibly be a scenario where bear spray does not deter a bear, (Or bears?) from you and your wife and your three kids?

It is not my opinion that guns kill bear... I'm afraid it is fact... Here are some pictures....

What you are eluding to (And every study mentioned thus far)... is that PEOPLE WHO CANNOT WIELD A FIREARM PROFICIENTLY have a better survival rate with bear spray, than they do with guns... and I agree. If you have not trained with the firearm you intend to use for bear protection, then you should carry bear spray as your primary line of defense.

As I have stated 4 times prior to this post... if you have not trained to be in this situation with a firearm, you should not use a firearm.

I assure you... you go on any guided hunt in AK for ANYTHING in the bush... look what your guide is carrying. He is not carrying bear spray. The reason he is not carrying bear spray, is because bear spray DOES NOT KILL BEARS.... AND SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO KILL BEARS. Chances are, his "Big macho revolver" will be his SECONDARY weapon.... a 45-70 1895G (The primary weapon of choice up here for OVERALL bear protection in a close quarter rifle) is what he'll be carrying ANYWHERE there are brownies known to be.

Unfortunatly, there is no study that I'm aware of that has taken place regarding Alaskan Guides and their practices... but I know a few, and I assure you... it is the case. Don't take my word for it... come up here and see for yourself :-\

Again... there is no need for me to try and prove my point any further. If you do not understand what is being said... than you never will, until it's your family, or yourself on the other end of 4 yearlings and a sow hunting YOU... and you wasted all your bear spray on the first cub you saw (Cubs can be upwards of 300-400 Lbs BTW) thinking it was the only one...

It sounds to me like you are the perfect candidate for bear spray... and I hope it keeps you safe in the event you have to deploy it (That goes for anyone else that decides to rely on it as well). I am speaking from my experiences, and of those who I know to have been in life or death encounters with bears.

Seriously... you haven't provided anything that isn't consistent with what I've already said.. and anything outside of that is pure speculation when it comes to real life scenarios. Unless you've been in one yourself, which I am quite certain you haven't, you should stick to bear spray.

 

[TonyM]

Surely... just another "Macho" revolver toting idiot, who knows nothing about the "Wonders" of bear spray....lol Notice all of the sponsers on the wall behind him while he is talking about the encounter... I know.. not a Gov agency or anything like Dept. Fish and Game with some Biologists with notepads and clip boards rummaging through reported incidents... just those idiot business that RELY ON PROVEN METHODS OF HUNTING AND OUTDOOR SAFETY...lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMbnmLLnsfw

He wasn't even in Alaska (This is from a post on the 2nd page of this thread BTW... in case you wanted to go back and re-read what has already been said).

 

[RockMonkey]

Wow, you really feel strongly about this!

No, bear spray will not kill a bear.

I'm not leading any hunting expeditions in Alaska, so I won't be carrying a large caliber rifle and revolver every time I go hiking or camping where there might be a bear.

No, I haven't trained with a pistol specifically to counter a bear attack.

It also doesn't sound like I have anything big-enough caliber to effectively stop a bear.

Yup, bear spray sounds like a good idea for me.

 

[TonyM]

Wow, you really feel strongly about this!

No, bear spray will not kill a bear.

I'm not leading any hunting expeditions in Alaska, so I won't be carrying a large caliber rifle and revolver every time I go hiking or camping where there might be a bear.

No, I haven't trained with a pistol specifically to counter a bear attack.

It also doesn't sound like I have anything big-enough caliber to effectively stop a bear.

Yup, bear spray sounds like a good idea for me.

I do feel strongly about it... this is a serious subject... Lots of people get mauled, and even die because of this subject. I realize that bear encounters are VERY rare, and bear spray will save you MOST of the time... but it only takes once right? I guess if you are hiking around in the woods by yourself, it's not as big of a deal... but if you have your wife and kids with you, and they are relying on YOU for THEIR protection... how much of that responsibility are you going to leave to chance?... :-\


I dont know about down there, but there are classes/courses you can take up here for this very purpose. The last one I went to was about $250 (Plus the cost of ammo), but it was two 8 hour sessions, all based on rapid close quarter firearm deployment, and threat assessment. If you do have anything like this down there, and are considering carrying a firearm in the woods for bear protection, I would encourage you to look into signing up. I go through one about ever 2-3 years... and I learn something new every time, and gain that much more confidence with my ability to handle a situation like that.

 

[SAMI]

For someone in the SL area wanting to purchase some bear spray: http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=218&ad=12095459&cat=188&lpid=6&search=

 

[mbryson]

TonyM: Just curious what caliber is recommended by the bear training? .44 magnum and above? I doubt a 9mm is going to take care of me in a bear situation, but at least I'll have something to use. Maybe I'll get in a lucky shot or three. Beats running, IMHO