Big Brother BLM

[Greg]

I find it interesting how the BLM is trying to force these permits on a small group of friends that want to go ride legal, public trails.

Authorized by the Land and Water Conservation Fund Act, permits are required for the following types of uses: commercial, vending, competitive, individual or group use in special areas, and organized group activities and events.

From here- http://www.blm.gov/ut/st/en/fo/moab/recreation/camping.html

So my question is, what determines a 'organized group activity?' Posting up on a website and inviting buddies out for a weekend ride by way of a forum must make it a organized group activity.

From now on all our wheelin trips will be un-organized group activities. Sound good?

 

[Skylinerider]

From now on all our wheelin trips will be un-organized group activities. Sound good?

Sounds good, just say I'll be at xxx at x oclock if anybody is looking for me, I can't stop you from following me or saying hi if you happen to be there when I am.

 

[scoutabout]

We had a similar incident happen in Kanab about three years ago. Basically it was a rogue ranger pushing his agenda rather than the Field Office personel that did it.

This is what I was getting at. Rogue employee, or stated policy.

So my question is, what determines a 'organized group activity?' Posting up on a website and inviting buddies out for a weekend ride by way of a forum must make it a organized group activity.

The problem is the interpretation. It has previously meant organized groups. As in a group with a name, website, established presence, etc. Posting on RME or MotoUtah to meet up with friends for a ride couldn't be held up as an organized event. I'd be ready to make the case in court that a personal post on RME is the same as calling or emailing a group of friends. Different media, same intent.

Since I showed up in Utah, I kept hearing how this was going to be a problem, but I have yet to experience it. Seems to come down to individual enforcement.

 

[Don B]

They have guidelines, but basically it is up to the BLM employee in charge. All very subjective. The general rule we were working under with the old RMP, was that as long as it was a club ride and the general public wasn't invited, we didn't need a permit if it was under 50 vehicles. Posting rides on websites and email lists for club members wasn't considered advertising.

The incident this thread is about and the incident I had in Kanab both seem to be using SRP's as harrassment against someone that some BLM employee doesn't like. The rules need to be made fair, reasonable and non-arbitrary so that this sort of incident won't become more common.

 

[scoutabout]

The general rule we were working under with the old RMP, was that as long as it was a club ride and the general public wasn't invited, we didn't need a permit if it was under 50 vehicles. Posting rides on websites and email lists for club members wasn't considered advertising.

Right, I've understood the interpretation to be something similar.

The incident this thread is about and the incident I had in Kanab both seem to be using SRP's as harrassment against someone that some BLM employee doesn't like.

That's why I always try to be someone they like.

The rules need to be made fair, reasonable and non-arbitrary so that this sort of incident won't become more common.

Agreed. I echo your sentiment hoping BRC can get involved further with this issue as they have discussed.

 

[SAMI]

In response to a deleted post...?

I feel the same way... Take the ticket with a smile and tell him to prepare for a legal battle.

 

[cannoncrawler]

This is from SUWA's website.

Can we inquire as to whether they had a permit to be gathered in such a larger group? Surely such information is available to the public through the freedom of information act.

 

[Stephen]

This is from SUWA's website.

Can we inquire as to whether they had a permit to be gathered in such a larger group? Surely such information is available to the public through the freedom of information act.

This is what I was thinking. Are only motorized users being harassed, or are other user groups as well? When I read through the RMP's I was only concerned with motorized issues, so I don't remember if the SRP's applied to other uses.
I agree that if this happens to you, take the ticket. One way or another there will come a point when a precedent will need to be set. As others have mentioned, my understanding of the new regulations was that they were not a carte blanch for the BLM to ticket any groups of people they felt were 'organized'.
On an aside, why is the BLM spending time and resources perusing user forums? I would think that that money could be better spent elsewhere.

 

[anderson750]

why is the BLM spending time and resources perusing user forums? I would think that that money could be better spent elsewhere.

The authority at most BLM offices have been infiltrated by people who have personal agenda's that they want to enforce onto the motorized community. The BLM oversee's YOUR public land, but in their eyes it is not YOURS.

Monitoring public forums like this is a way for them to oversee what you are doing and intervene if they feel the need. Don't try and use any logic as to why the BLM does what they do, because they are not here to protect YOUR right to access to YOUR land.

PEOPLE NEED TO BE MORE ACTIVELY INVOLVED IN BEING IN THE FACE OF THE BLM. SUWA IS.

 

[scoutabout]

The authority at most BLM offices have been infiltrated by people who have personal agenda's...

I've never been convinced that "most" BLM offices are allowing personal agendas to rule over policy and the BLM's general mission. Perpetuating this idea as the "cause" of our problems ignores the real issues and is a disservice to the community. It's like a smoker with lung cancer blaming the tobacco industry. It is clear that there are some renegade land managers at the technician level promoting a personal agenda, but how can it be said that this is a prevailing condition?

Instead of looking for someone else to blame, the community needs to focus on controllable causes such as disregard for resource damage, lack of education, limited enforcement (peer or professional), and lack of involvement in the planning process.

People who don't recognize resource damage as a real issue are left with renegade land managers as the only explanation for closures. Sometimes things are closed because uninformed users are causing problems in opposition to the land managers defined mission.

When there are no more irresponsible users, roads and trails will open instead of close.

Instead of perpetuating this idea of widespread renegade land managers as a strategy to get people involved (and donating), let's get people involved on the issues we can affect.

Renegade land managers with personal agendas against motorized recreation will gain support if the community continues down its current path. Take away their reasoning by focusing on the things we can change. Increased penalties are being proposed in 2009, let's support that effort. Education projects have never been appropriately supported by the motorized groups. Peer enforcement is marginally supported and unorganized. Volunteer projects are too few and often planned with little notice.

Don't try and use any logic as to why the BLM does what they do...

Aside from the occassional nut (as in every environment), the BLM and the FS does use logic to determine what they do. When you understand what their actual mission is, it is easy to see what they do.

...because they are not here to protect YOUR right to access to YOUR land.

Why would they be? That is not their mission. Their mission is to support long term health and sustainability for the public lands in their care. When we understand this mission and work within its requirements, we can make positive change.

We have to be active in protecting OUR privilege to access OUR land via motorized means. As long as we are exclusively blaming outside forces for our problems, we will never be able to overcome them.

PEOPLE NEED TO BE MORE ACTIVELY INVOLVED IN BEING IN THE FACE OF THE BLM. SUWA IS.

While we can learn much from SUWA and their methods, being at odds with the land managers isn't always the best route. Having that stick is nice when the honey doesn't work though. The motorized community needs a lot more honey and a bigger stick.

JOIN-DONATE-PARTICIPATE (AJP)

I think Alan I disagree slightly on how to define each of those words, but I've always loved this slogan. When we have more people participating in those actions, we'll be in better shape.

 

[_Auzzy_]

Yall don't think they will try to disturb us on Thanksgiving do you?

 

[Herzog]

Yall don't think they will try to disturb us on Thanksgiving do you?

It's not an "organized run" by any means.

 

[anderson750]

I've never been convinced that "most" BLM offices are allowing personal agendas to rule over policy and the BLM's general mission. Perpetuating this idea as the "cause" of our problems ignores the real issues and is a disservice to the community. It's like a smoker with lung cancer blaming the tobacco industry. It is clear that there are some renegade land managers at the technician level promoting a personal agenda, but how can it be said that this is a prevailing condition?

Instead of looking for someone else to blame, the community needs to focus on controllable causes such as disregard for resource damage, lack of education, limited enforcement (peer or professional), and lack of involvement in the planning process.

People who don't recognize resource damage as a real issue are left with renegade land managers as the only explanation for closures. Sometimes things are closed because uninformed users are causing problems in opposition to the land managers defined mission.

When there are no more irresponsible users, roads and trails will open instead of close.

Instead of perpetuating this idea of widespread renegade land managers as a strategy to get people involved (and donating), let's get people involved on the issues we can affect.

Renegade land managers with personal agendas against motorized recreation will gain support if the community continues down its current path. Take away their reasoning by focusing on the things we can change. Increased penalties are being proposed in 2009, let's support that effort. Education projects have never been appropriately supported by the motorized groups. Peer enforcement is marginally supported and unorganized. Volunteer projects are too few and often planned with little notice.




Aside from the occassional nut (as in every environment), the BLM and the FS does use logic to determine what they do. When you understand what their actual mission is, it is easy to see what they do.



Why would they be? That is not their mission. Their mission is to support long term health and sustainability for the public lands in their care. When we understand this mission and work within its requirements, we can make positive change.

We have to be active in protecting OUR privilege to access OUR land via motorized means. As long as we are exclusively blaming outside forces for our problems, we will never be able to overcome them.



While we can learn much from SUWA and their methods, being at odds with the land managers isn't always the best route. Having that stick is nice when the honey doesn't work though. The motorized community needs a lot more honey and a bigger stick.



I think Alan I disagree slightly on how to define each of those words, but I've always loved this slogan. When we have more people participating in those actions, we'll be in better shape.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that all the problems lie within the BLM. I may be a little bit biased, since it seems that our local field office has had history of people with an agenda. There has even been an instance where an employee was reprimanded for using a BLM computer to supply info directly to SUWA. I am glad this employee is no longer in this state. I hope other offices are not this bad.

Also as far as personal agendas, we have seen in our local office many times over the years, that data just gets lost. I don't think that is within the mission of the BLM to disregard information that is submitted to them during RMP. So I have probably spoken out of context and painted with a broad brush that all the other field offices are like Price.

I agree with you 100% that we have more problems outside the office, with people who think it is their right to go wherever they want. Damage from off-route travel is a huge issue. I know a guy that I will not ride ATV's with due to the fact that he feels it is his right to go wherever he wants to. I have told him he may as well join SUWA, since he is hurting the off-road community with his antics.

In my opinion, off route travel is part ignorance, part lack of adequate signage on trails. For every 1 person that is an idiot causing damage, there are ten or more responsible people that care about what is happening. Every person needs to take the opportunity to educate others that they meet.

You are 100% right that we need to focus on what we can change and we need more of the community involved. Right now my son is 5 and I am afraid I will not be able to take him out on motorcycles and ride the trails we ride now when he is old enough. More people need to get as passionate about land issues as they are about their rigs.

 

[scoutabout]

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that all the problems lie within the BLM. I may be a little bit biased, since it seems that our local field office has had history of people with an agenda. There has even been an instance where an employee was reprimanded for using a BLM computer to supply info directly to SUWA. I am glad this employee is no longer in this state. I hope other offices are not this bad.

Also as far as personal agendas, we have seen in our local office many times over the years, that data just gets lost. I don't think that is within the mission of the BLM to disregard information that is submitted to them during RMP. So I have probably spoken out of context and painted with a broad brush that all the other field offices are like Price.

I agree with you 100% that we have more problems outside the office, with people who think it is their right to go wherever they want. Damage from off-route travel is a huge issue. I know a guy that I will not ride ATV's with due to the fact that he feels it is his right to go wherever he wants to. I have told him he may as well join SUWA, since he is hurting the off-road community with his antics.

In my opinion, off route travel is part ignorance, part lack of adequate signage on trails. For every 1 person that is an idiot causing damage, there are ten or more responsible people that care about what is happening. Every person needs to take the opportunity to educate others that they meet.

You are 100% right that we need to focus on what we can change and we need more of the community involved. Right now my son is 5 and I am afraid I will not be able to take him out on motorcycles and ride the trails we ride now when he is old enough. More people need to get as passionate about land issues as they are about their rigs.

Good stuff!

We can go a long way by working closely with land managers on solutions. The recent increase in the open riding area at Factory Butte was the result of the Southern Utah OHV Club working closely with the Richfield office to support an alternate proposal. Their close work with the BLM and many supporting comments during the public input stage resulted in increased access through friendly means.

In Moab, Red Rock 4 Wheelers protected all of the Jeep Safari routes during the RMP through a history of engaging in cooperative action with the BLM. They also used the courts and tens of thousands of dollars to keep Strike Ravine open and on the maps after threats of closure from a private land owner.

Moab Friends-For-Wheelin' and Canyon Country 4x4 Club are other great examples of cooperative increases in access. U4WDA and Utah4X4Club.com on Forest Lake in AF Canyon. And there are many more groups across the OHV community acting as great examples through their cooperative efforts with land managers.

JOIN, DONATE, PARTICIPATE INDEED!