Booo! on Garfield County - "Deal aimed at paving famous Burr Trail switchbacks"

Stephen

Who Dares Wins
Moderator
We are all in this fight together and when one of us loses, we all lose. When they successfully eliminate one user, it won't be long before they are going after another.

Given this sentiment, which I agree with, I find, say, Brian's stance on this project, and USA-ALL's historical lack of perceived concern regarding 4x4 trails a little bewildering.

I've been thinking this same thing since the discussion began, Tacoma. I worry that the other UG's will either not care, or actually work towards getting the road paved because it would make access easier for them to single track/ATV trails. USA-All, for better or worse, has usually had the concerns of MC and ATV users closer to heart than full size. This is because the majority of the board is dominated by those users. My hope is that what Paul is saying is true, and that USA-All will fight for our continued, historical access along the Burr Trail and other roads threatened to be paved.
 

anderson750

I'm working on it Rose
Location
Price, Utah
Given this sentiment, which I agree with, I find, say, Brian's stance on this project, and USA-ALL's historical lack of perceived concern regarding 4x4 trails a little bewildering. :D

To me, this issue is about preserving a historically dirt route, the paving of which has certain detrimental effects, and which poses certain issues for land-use ethicists, and NOT whatever Jack Johnston proposes. While I appreciate Jack's sentiment and rationale, this is not really the thread for it. ;)

Stay focused.

I've been thinking this same thing since the discussion began, Tacoma. I worry that the other UG's will either not care, or actually work towards getting the road paved because it would make access easier for them to single track/ATV trails. USA-All, for better or worse, has usually had the concerns of MC and ATV users closer to heart than full size. This is because the majority of the board is dominated by those users. My hope is that what Paul is saying is true, and that USA-All will fight for our continued, historical access along the Burr Trail and other roads threatened to be paved.

I don't discount your historical perception of where the majority of effort was put. Historically the ATV group has had the biggest target on its back and that in turn has seen the majority of focus. There are a few organizations that do a good job focusing on their user groups, UTMA for motorcycles & U4 for the full size community are a couple of examples. USA-All should be working for all user groups and that has been my focus the last year that I have been the president. No one can ignore the division there has been between U4 & USA-All in the past and it has been a major objective of mine to repair this relationship. I feel that I have been able to make some pretty good strides in this effort and look forward to making it better.

I know we all struggle to get enough involvement from the community, but I would really like a member of the full size community to become a board member. It does not have to be someone who is on the U4 board, but someone who just wants to be a voice.
 

SportSawyer

Member
Location
Northern Utah
You can call it cherry-stemming, but that's a dumb term. I would rather say that a road (yes a road, not a trail) would be a wilderness boundary. If the remaining piece isn't large enough to make into a wilderness unit, then it isn't. ....

Cherry-stem is being incorrectly used by most (if not all) of those in this thread. In that (incorrect) context, it is a dumb term.

Cherry-stem is normally used to describe a setback around a spur or dead-end road that goes into a "roadless" area but not all the way through. So, for example, say the dead end road is 1 mile long and goes into a 7000 acre stand-alone "roadless" area. If the road is cherry-stemmed with a 33 foot setback on each side, then the "roadless" area is now only 8 acres smaller.

But if that road goes all the way through -- from one boundary location to another -- and splits the "roadless" area in half, then there are 2 separate "roadless" areas. This is normally called a corridor or just a boundary. Now neither of the smaller stand-alone "roadless" areas meets the 5000 acre requirement, and neither would qualify for Wilderness designation.

Steve's correctly seeing the boundary and size issue. He's also correct in calling roads "roads" and trails "trails", this is important. I've seen efforts to downgrade system roads to trails in the past, and prevented some of those efforts. If anyone doesn't understand the "why" here, they really need to do more homework.
 
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cruiseroutfit

Cruizah!
Moderator
Vendor
Location
Sandy, Ut
Friday's meeting was very productive imo, while the subject wasn't Notom/HITR/Burr, they definitey were a sidebar that we discussed. We have an appointment with State BLM director Juan Palma later this month. We are hoping he will delay the Notom paving project and surely investigate the HITR paving plans along with other 'development' in Garfield County on public lands.

Tacoma, how are you coming on U4's letter?

Paul, any luck getting Usa-All to pen their opinion on paving OHV routes that I can bring with me?
 

Wicked Monkey

Banned
Location
Utah
Its all about revenue! The state will do what ever it takes to make money! Serious! What ever it takes! Does anyone know their history on Antelope island and the True story on how it became a park? Horrible!
 

cruiseroutfit

Cruizah!
Moderator
Vendor
Location
Sandy, Ut
Friday's meeting was very productive imo, while the subject wasn't Notom/HITR/Burr, they definitey were a sidebar that we discussed. We have an appointment with State BLM director Juan Palma later this month. We are hoping he will delay the Notom paving project and surely investigate the HITR paving plans along with other 'development' in Garfield County on public lands.

Tacoma, how are you coming on U4's letter?

Paul, any luck getting Usa-All to pen their opinion on paving OHV routes that I can bring with me?

Bump, Tacoma or any other BOD member from U4 reading this? The time to comment is now... what is U4 waiting for?

I'm meeting with State BLM director Juan Palma this Friday, either I have U4's comments or their voice won't be heard... again.
 

anderson750

I'm working on it Rose
Location
Price, Utah
I have some revisions I need to make to USA-Alls letter. I am leaving for St. George shortly for a race and won't be able to do it until morning. What time is your meeting?
 

jackjoh

Jack - KC6NAR
Supporting Member
Location
Riverton, UT
Tacoma is out of town and I have been given the responsibility of writing the letter. Can I fax it or email it to you about 9:00 AM?
 
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Tacoma

Et incurventur ante non
Location
far enough away
Jack: the letter was written about a month ago. Apparently no one got my emails about exactly that. Feel free to write another though, Kurt can put it to good use.

Kurt: see your mail, finally fixed *most* of the formatting that kept it from you.
 

cruiseroutfit

Cruizah!
Moderator
Vendor
Location
Sandy, Ut
Forgot to post an update here. First and foremost, a big thanks to Jack J. and the U4WDA for their letter asking that Garfield county reconsider paving of historic routes (Burr Trail), it was very well received. Our meeting with BLM State Director Juan Palma went very well, I found he very passionate about his work, the communities their public lands and the situations from both sides. He confirmed they have been in talks with Garfield County about paving projects including the HITR Road. While there is nothing on paper about the HITR paving project he confirmed it has been discussed alongside the Burr Trail and Notom Road projects. He has met with their commissioners and conveyed their interest and need to draw more tourism, the GSENM has become a tourist draw but they want (need?) more year round paved access to those areas to bring money to their county. The BLM is actively working with them to mitigate these issues and identify areas appropriate for more improved tourist areas, ideally without paving but the BLM themselves is not ruling that out. I think Juan was interested in the fact that OHV users want these routes to stay dirt but after explaining the reasoning he was on board. We all laughed at the irony of traveling the HITR Road to celebrate the difficult journey faced by the San Juan Expedition... but doing it so from the window of your diesel pusher motorhome on a 65 mph two lane highway.

Sadly the paperwork was already signed for the Notom Road paving project prior to our meeting with Juan. A dirt road that sees 27 vehicles per day (NPS had counters placed to prove lack of need) is going to be paved, not in its entirety but a good chunk. I have no doubt the remaining portion will come up in the next few years and he confirmed it has been discussed and if money was available it would have happened. While its a minor/no loss for many, I feel its a disturbing trend to pave these historic routes, particularly the HITR Road. I felt it was a great opportunity to voice my opinion on these paving projects and I feel he was very receptive to the motorized communities best interest in them not being pave. SUWA may be planning some form of legal action or protest on the Notom paving, that is neither here nor there as far as I'm concerned as my goal was simple to present the case of what I felt was the best interest of the OHV community in these meetings.

One of the greatest 'take homes' from the meeting was a discussion we had about forming a panel group (akin to and including the RAC) to discuss planning on these types of issues at a much larger scale. I.e not as big as a complete RMP but small segments within the RMP, clear as mud? So rather than try and push an RMP through that dictates every single road, every single trail head, every single camping area... you break it down into smaller chunks. Think of the way the 5 Mile Pass Recreation Area is managed as its own entity within the greater Salt Lake Field office of the BLM, Little Sahara Sand Dunes, etc. The BLM may have access to some grant? money to use for this project, they would bring in a 3rd party facilitator to discuss these issues, host meetings, field trips and get down on the ground and discuss them before it becomes law in an RMP. While the logistics seem almost crazy to think of, imagine if this could have happened with the Moab district RMP particularly Coyote Canyon, what if we could have had the OHV, County, City, commerce, tourism and environmentalist groups walk that section of trail before making a decision on the routes. Could it work? SUWA for example didn't comment for or against Coyote Canyon (as I'm told), so would the BLM have felt compelled to close it? What about the Price trails that were closed in the RMP? Given the lack of reaction or call to action from the environmentalist groups would they have suffered their fate if a RAC type group could have discussed them prior? Who knows if/when it will happen or what the outcome will be but I am optimistic to think their are steps being taken to resolve some of these conflicts. Juan mentioned a potential spring trip to the HITR Road for the BLM, County and public interest groups (ie environmental and OHV groups included) to actually go down there and discuss the issues face to face and on the ground. I think that too would serve a beneficial purpose, far more than hearing it on the County Seat :D

I had a couple of members of another local 4x4 forum tell me they 'lost all respect' for me for trying to 'negotiate with SUWA'. Oh well, it was either I be there to voice what I felt was best for the OHV needs or the meetings would have gone on without me ;) I wasn't there to negotiate, I was there to express my interest (and the perceived interest in the greater 4x4 community) in not having routes pave. Hate me if you must. Like I told them, I'll sleep just fine tonight ;). Now if Jack J. tells me he lost respect for me I would be bummed but in my many talks with U4 BOD members and local 4x4 club owners along with members of the local industry, I felt everyone had the same opinion I have in that 'common ground is common ground' and at a minimum we should have our interests represented in these discussions with State and Federal leaders.
 

Herzog

somewhat damaged
Admin
Location
Wydaho
I had a couple of members of another local 4x4 forum tell me they 'lost all respect' for me for trying to 'negotiate with SUWA'. Oh well, it was either I be there to voice what I felt was best for the OHV needs or the meetings would have gone on without me ;) I wasn't there to negotiate, I was there to express my interest (and the perceived interest in the greater 4x4 community) in not having routes pave. Hate me if you must. Like I told them, I'll sleep just fine tonight ;). Now if Jack J. tells me he lost respect for me I would be bummed but in my many talks with U4 BOD members and local 4x4 club owners along with members of the local industry, I felt everyone had the same opinion I have in that 'common ground is common ground' and at a minimum we should have our interests represented in these discussions with State and Federal leaders.

It takes guts, that's for sure. I don't think I could ever personally bring myself to negotiate with lairs like suwa. However, it is said "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer". ;)
 

cruiseroutfit

Cruizah!
Moderator
Vendor
Location
Sandy, Ut
It takes guts, that's for sure. I don't think I could ever personally bring myself to negotiate with lairs like suwa. However, it is said "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer". ;)

I want to clarify that I'm not there to negotiate so much as tasked with finding common ground and work from there on those items. While I can't say it will be successful and maybe at the end of the day we shake hands and say "we tried, but we have nothing in common" but in the meantime I've had the opportunity to meet with State and Federal officials that do listen to SUWA and can and have been influenced by their beliefs. To have our voice be absent 'just because xyz' is there is a weak policy at best and is exactly how we got to where we are. Beyond that, if/when the Greater Canyonlands bill were to get signed into law (which isn't unfathomable at all considering how quick/dirty GSENM went down and the current political climate). I'd rather work to influence trails like Moab Rim off the closure list than spend zero effort defeating a bill which is somewhat the current status quo. Ever wonder why so many in the Mountain Biking community are seemingly supportive of the Wilderness activist groups or at least not vocally against it? Group leaders from several major MTB groups sat down with SUWA and others Wilderness cohorts and were able to mitigate many of the potential bike trail conflicts before they became and issue in the event that GC or RR Wilderness bills were to be signed into law. Its like an insurance policy, some of the 'prevent the fire' train of thought, others have the 'prevent the fire but have a fire extinguisher handy' mentality about these situations. In the case of the OHV routes we are losing currently to paving and potential paving projects, this is a fire extinguisher situation but we as OHV users didn't prevent the fire and subsequently are losing routes.

The State of Utah has bills in session right now asking that 30 Million acres of land be turned back to the state. While the fully know it will never happen and they fully know the State of Utah doesn't have $200+ million to take over management of public lands (remember our State Parks are failing due to budget constraints)... I can only hope this is a show of 'stance' in which the Federal government will think twice about giant Wilderness bills or Monuments. The flip side is some think that this flexing of muscles will only force the hand of the federal government into 'protecting' more of Utah against Utahn's. If/when the land transfer were to happen (which by all admissions it won't), its entirely hard to say what it would mean for OHV use on public lands, what it would mean is further mineral extraction, sale of public lands to private interests and land auctions akin to SITLA (remember how much they cared about Lower Helldorado and the area BFE trails ;)). Hard to say. What it already has done however, is lead those outside our State to think our lawmakers are crazier and 'nanny-like' more than ever... I can only imagine this will bolster the 'Save Utah Wilderness' cause on a even a larger level once these intentions are exploited to those weary of the States intentions. :(
 
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