Can of worms: School Vouchers

[mbryson]

Help me out here. I'm pretty much against removing ANY funds from public schools, thus initially against vouchers. Some of the commercials I have seen had me persuaded to consider them, but I really don't think there will be a large migration AWAY from public schools for the $4K per year (or whatever) tax credit. I'm ASSUMING a private school tuition would be well over twice that amount.

My summary is that I think the rich will get a tax credit for having their kids who are already in private schools and the public school fund will get smaller.


Am I wrong?

 

[BCGPER]

Personaly, I'm for it. Like you, I really don't see much changing, but it was the anti ad campaign that really persuaded me. I mean come on, they acted like the teachers in the private sector would be complete morons. It's not like that at all. I attended both private and public schools way back when. I believe the the quality of education you get in the private sector is better than the public system, but back then the private schools were all church based, which would be an issue with many today.

I don't see the school funding changing much either. The way I understand it, the schools get "X" dollars per student. If the student numbers don't change, would the school budget change? I don't know.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Thats the way I take it... the rich get another tax break. I argued this subject with my father in law for hours the other night. My wife's little sister has been in private schools in the past, Waterford in Sandy for example is ~$12k/year. While I'm sure a very small percentage will transfer from public to private given the voucher... but now all those students currently in private schools (that would have regardless of voucher) will be eligible for a tax break. How can they say that they will NOT take money from public schools.

I have my personal reserves about private school kids (the majority of which are socially inept IMO). I think there is more to an education than readring, writing and arithmetic, things that private schools don't teach ie. peer pressure, sports and not making the team, bully's, etc. Removing kids from that experience is nothing short of sheltering them IMO.

If they give vouchers for not sending your kids to public school, then why don't they give them to those of us without kids?? I'm not asking for it... nor am I asking to be releived from any of the other taxes I bear despite my lack of use.

I'll be voting NO!!!

And what is with all this talk of "public education is a failure"??? I am a product of public schools, so were 99% of my class at the U. When/where were we failed. I think the failures are parents that let their children fail! If you have a deadbeat child... change something, mabey send them to a private insitution that can nuture their needs, but don't blame public schools for your slow child. Sure private schools are more likely to produce "sucsessful" students, but "sucsessful" parents are more likely to send their children to said schools, and private schools usually have entrance exams... so they don't have to take the students that wouldn't likely excel. Frankly I'm sick of hearing public education is a failure... I cherished my education.

 

[Skylinerider]

The way I heard it is that you don't get the credit if your kid is already in private school. It is only if you put them in after this year.

I still don't understand how pro voucher groups say it will give more money to public school children when as it stands now you pay the school tax whether or not you kid goes to public school. My kid isn't old enough for school, and i pay taxes for schools. And don't get me started on the whole Utah parents need a choice in education. You already have the choice to send your kid to whichever school you want.

 

[Bart]

You opened the can, so I'm going to chime in.

I feel that competition in things, even academia, is a good thing. I even agree with most of what's being said by the pro voucher advocates.

My problem is that Utah refuses to step up and get out of the lowest spending of $$ per pupil in any state. That is sad and something our legislators seem to be proud of. Then you get the pro voucher group saying that vouchers will increase the per pupil amount. This leads to the biggest problem of all, that vouchers are a cure for our low per pupil spending. That's just not right.

The funds for education are finite. Consider those funds as pieces of a pie. Once the pieces are gone, there is no more. So, if you take a substantial piece of that pie and give it to vouchers, it doesn't matter for what reasons, there's going to be less pieces (funds) going to education. It's a simple fact.

So, although I agree with some of the pro voucher rhetoric, I think the legislature should fix the real problem with education funding before allocating some of that funding out for private use.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

...I don't see the school funding changing much either. The way I understand it, the schools get "X" dollars per student. If the student numbers don't change, would the school budget change? I don't know.

X is derived by their total budget, minius overhead, divided by the number of students. Take a smaller total budget and you get a smaller x

Even if a single student didn't transfer, all of the current private/charter school students would be eligible for a voucher. I don't have any hard numbers on the total number of current private/charter students... but the amount deducted from the total budget could easily reach the hundereds of millions.

EDIT: I humbly stand corrected, I assumed all current private/charter shool students would be eligible... this is simply not the case. Thus my X's are inncorrect

 

[mbryson]

You opened the can, so I'm going to chime in.

I feel that competition in things, even academia, is a good thing. I even agree with most of what's being said by the pro voucher advocates.

My problem is that Utah refuses to step up and get out of the lowest spending of $$ per pupil in any state. That is sad and something our legislators seem to be proud of. Then you get the pro voucher group saying that vouchers will increase the per pupil amount. This leads to the biggest problem of all, that vouchers are a cure for our low per pupil spending. That's just not right.

The funds for education are finite. Consider those funds as pieces of a pie. Once the pieces are gone, there is no more. So, if you take a substantial piece of that pie and give it to vouchers, it doesn't matter for what reasons, there's going to be less pieces (funds) going to education. It's a simple fact.

So, although I agree with some of the pro voucher rhetoric, I think the legislature should fix the real problem with education funding before allocating some of that funding out for private use.

That's pretty much my stand. The 'pie' example is perfect.

I think there's a LOT of room to improve in how districts and maybe even schools are managed.

 

[Meat_]

The funds for education are finite. Consider those funds as pieces of a pie. Once the pieces are gone, there is no more. So, if you take a substantial piece of that pie and give it to vouchers, it doesn't matter for what reasons, there's going to be less pieces (funds) going to education. It's a simple fact.

Utah spends $7,500 per student, the voucher is $2,000... that leaves $5,500 per voucher for the school to use.

Whether or not the school actually still gets the $5,500 I have not read enough to find out.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

The way I heard it is that you don't get the credit if your kid is already in private school. It is only if you put them in after this year...

If that is the case I have been mislead?? I tried searching an answer and I didn't find one. The facts/myths on the two opponents websites are pretty contradicting, and neither really address if current private school students are eligible. I can only imagine they are... I hardly doubt they would only allow new transfers the voucher.

 

[Skylinerider]

Some info here

 

[Bucking Bronco]

From what I understand each student cost the school system 7000.00 if they decide to go to private school the take out 2000.00 for the voucher leaving 5000.00 in the public system but removing the student therefor adding 5000.00

So while the piece of pie is missing the student is missing as well

So the simple way to break it down is if you had 10 students who all get 70,000 to split between them and one leaves and only takes 2000.00 with them it leaves 68,000 for the othe nine to split, so each student gets $7555 in spending

Correct me if I am wrong but that sounds like a good thing

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Some info here

According to that, current private school students are not eligible for vouchers... starting to not sound so bad afterall. I stand corrected on all my rhetoric

 

[Skylinerider]

According to that, current private school students are not eligible for vouchers... starting to not sound so bad afterall. I stand corrected on all my rhetoric

No matter which way you cut it, there is still public money going to aid private schools. Still not good IMO.

 

[RockMonkey]

Voting no. I'd write out my reasons, but Kurt's got it covered.

 

[waynehartwig]

I think public schools are failures. However, I don't fault the teachers - I fault the school board all the way up to the federal level. I think the PC movement is ruining our kids and their education. When anyone can go back and rewrite a text book not to contain a certain part of history (just plain leave it out), there is bound to be some failure. LIke someone said, a child has to learn how to fail and make it a positive moment. A child needs to learn that not every one of their actions are acceptable. ..And there is only 1 first place. If that's not you, then yes, you are a looser j/k if your 2nd, then there are other loosers worse than you Seriously though, not everyone wins/ties all the time. There is only one president. There is only one CEO. Not every employee at McDonalds is a manager/supervisor; one of them cleans up the trash/toilets and only one counts the money.

The bottom line is the parents involvement in their child's education. If they aren't going to be involved, then the child will just about fail regardless of the system. But the system doesn't need to be unionized and there doesn't need to be a teachers association taking most of the $'s away to pay their own salaries.

I also believe this new crap is because of the influx in people from CA. CA has the most messed up school system in the nation and now they are trying to mess up Utah's, too.

 

[Caleb]

From what I understand each student cost the school system 7000.00 if they decide to go to private school the take out 2000.00 for the voucher leaving 5000.00 in the public system but removing the student therefor adding 5000.00

So while the piece of pie is missing the student is missing as well

So the simple way to break it down is if you had 10 students who all get 70,000 to split between them and one leaves and only takes 2000.00 with them it leaves 68,000 for the othe nine to split, so each student gets $7555 in spending

Correct me if I am wrong but that sounds like a good thing

That's the way I've understood it and, IMO, can't be a bad thing. Yes, some money will be leaving the public system but, as you said, so will the student and they will be leaving a larger chunk of change in the public school system then what they take with them.

 

[Bucking Bronco]

I make the choice to send my child to private school so if I want to send them to a school without degre/certification that is my choice no one is forcing anyone to go to private school

I also feel that part of the money that funds public school is my taxes and I should have a choice to send my kids to any school I want and not still have to pay for public school that my child is not attending

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Should I get a tax credit it I plow my own street?
Should I get a tax credit if I don't use public sanitation (garbage pickup?)
Should I pay a 911 phone tax if I promise to never call 911?
Should I pay tax on alchahol if I promise not to drink it?
Should I get gasoline tax exempt if I only use said gas on private property?
Should I get a tax cut if I never use public LEO, rather my own security firm?
Should I get a tax break if I neve use public fire protection? In the old days only the insured had fire protection ya know

Why not privatise everything... schools, police, fire, etc... we KNOW they can do it cheaper, but can they do it better and still maintain accountability. Look at private security in Iraq, they can do whatever they want... a far cry from private schools, but is it? Don't think some scumbag opportunist won't open a private school, hire a pile of deadbeats and scam parents and our would be tax money via vouchers.

Where do we stop... give people an inch and you know what happens.

 

[Bucking Bronco]

Your not supposed to plow your own street
I pay a seperate garbage tax with my water bill cancel you service
Some one might need to call 911 for you
Im sure you drink plenty of it
Yes you can buy non taxed fuel Though I think just deisel
Public leo are helping you even if there not holding your hand
And if you have a way to know you will never need fire protection Sure why not

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Your not supposed to plow your own street

And obviously our system was NOT setup to eductate your own kids (which is essentially what PRIVATE school is doing). Apples to apples...

Public leo are helping you even if there not holding your hand

And public schools are helping you even if your kids don't go there But for giggles, how are public leo's helping me? In a truly lawless society... common sense prevails...