Comps in Moab discussion

[sukaB]

My Point was that Moab was there first already hosting so many different events it gets beat up, It's highly visible (#1) to the weenies, All it needs is more trampeling....
I agree with it being the perfect area though tons of foreigners and eyes to watch....
I just don't want to see jeeps dissapear from MOAB.....

The sad thing is that I would rather not take part in running a Moab crawl but if one of the series's that I run went through there I would have to show not because I wanted to..
Land wise

Rockcrawl comps are the way of my life,
My business and my personal, my sponsors pay me to attend,
I have to...

 

[britney]

Wow Spence, very well put. I thought my opinion was pretty set on the "NO to MOAB" theory but your points are quite valid.

I also agree that 4wheeling could disappear from Moab if too many Comps were held there, and that would be a tragedy. Moab and all the land surrounding are connected to a nationally protected park. If that landscape becomes in jeopardy, the wheelers go by by. It will get to the point where you have to get a gov. permit years in advance, or pay a hefty fee to the land owners to do poison spider, cliffhanger, or any trail near Moab. As a community we are obligated to help keep that from becoming necessary.

 

[Cody]

I see both sides of the story. I think that events in moab draw too much attention to what is going on. Moab is already a hotbed of political turmoil--we don't need to stir the beans.

Private land, I think that is the way to go. If a private land owner wants to use his land--thats great. My only concern is that what if some dump punk kid or drunken redneck sees people driving up random rocks in the comp, and then goes out into Behind the Rocks and starts driving up every random rock he sees because thats what he saw. If they think that is appropriate on all land, then thats bad. We have to face the fact that people are stupid and couldn't tell the difference between public, private, and wilderness land if it was written on the lable of their PBR.

Cody

 

[Hickey]

Very good points Cody. I too think it will cause more people to leave the designated trails in Moab. It might even cause a general perception that Moab is like 5-mile or desert mountain, and it's just "Point an drive".

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Well there are obviously some misconceptions about private property ownership...

They can't do whatever they want, not even close...

a. Though Moab is a smaller city with very relaxed zoning ordianances, it is very possible that they could place ordinances on the property to prevent anything thought as a disturbance or danger to others. Greg Godfrey of "Godrey Films" (they make ton of dirtbike and snowmobile movies here in Utah) built a personale track on his huge property in Draper. Neighbors didn't like the sound, dust and lights... no more personal track...

b. There are hundreds of acres of private property along the foothills in the Wasatch Front... strict zoning ordinances restrict developers from developing any of the land they paid lots of money for. Some have been able to adapt their plans enough to let them slide but others are hopeless, groups like SOC (Save Our Canyons) sue everytime the developers plan anything ON THEIR OWN PROPERTY!

c. Public Right of Way - This one pertains to the "Rim Adventure Park"... the road used to get to the comp as well as the actual destination of the road, is public property... the owner cann't close down his section to those passing through without a huge legal battle.

d. Existing property up Big Cottonwood Canyon, new watershed and zoning ordinances restrict new construction on 100 year old properties in the canyon... is it fair?

So in short, you really can't do anything you want on private property...

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Originally posted by spencurai
...Don't lobby for a cease and decist in moab.....lobby for responsible event hosting and environmental practices. ...

IMHO, responsible event hosting means staying out of Moab...

Too many treehugger watchgroups...
Too much existing debate over trails...
Too many user conflicts...
Too much hard work by others just to be wasted for some profits...

The fact RR4W wants to move the "Jeep Safari" to a weekend other than Easter tells you that the city (more importantly, the people that make the city), are not over-concerned with money, rather making it a safe fun event for everyone... I'm sure that the impact of their event on the environment and the perspective they get from outsiders weighs heavily on the decision.

 

[spencurai]

Originally posted by cruiseroutfit


IMHO, responsible event hosting means staying out of Moab...

Too many treehugger watchgroups...
Too much existing debate over trails...
Too many user conflicts...
Too much hard work by others just to be wasted for some profits...

I think what this comes down to is the morality of our sport.

In your comments you state that you are affraid of watchgroups, debate, other users......what do you have to hide....

what I read from your post is that you enjoy your sport but that its destructive nature might cause its extinction faster if it gets publicized than if you can keep it a secret....

in the eyes of the public, we haven't a leg to stand on so eat drink and be merry for tomorrow......we drive on pavement.

lets face it folks....our time on the rocks is limited and we have no legal basis to stand on....we are destructive, we have an impact on the environment we attend.....so get it while the gettin is good!! I know I am!!

the fact of the matter is that tree huggers don't need to see the impact we are making on ILLEGAL areas...all they have to see is the LEGAL impact we are making to burn us...get your moab trips in because kansas is going bye bye dorothy!! I give moab ten years with current popularity and expansioin in the industry....there are going to be traffic jams in moab....and it will eventually be closed....like every other place on the planet and there isn't a damn thing you can do to stop it....just slow it down!!

your church is going to get closed eventually...



ok ok ok.....this is worst case scenario but it is a thought....again....a little satan's lap dog going on here.....

 

[Hickey]

as far as traffic Jams in Moab, you haven't ben to easter safari yet, eh? Think of it like Disneyland. It's been around for over 50 years and gets a lot more exposure. Yes it gets very crouded, but people still go, and have a good time.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Originally posted by spencurai
...In your comments you state that you are affraid of watchgroups, debate, other users......what do you have to hide.......

I have nothing to hide, I will not be there if they do have one...

I have been to many comps, trees get trampled, rocks get marked, trash gets left. Yes the organizing groups do an excellent job cleaning it up, but in Moab, that may not be enough... that place is a hot spot for SUWA, etc...

I am yet to hear any complaints from groups like SUWA, Sierra, etc... about the Cedar City or St George Events that have been going on for 3+ years... but they do complain heavily about the events in Moab already.. why add fuel to the fire?

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Originally posted by spencurai
...lets face it folks....our time on the rocks is limited and we have no legal basis to stand on....we are destructive, we have an impact on the environment we attend.....so get it while the gettin is good!! I know I am!!...

Funny, a couple months ago you were on the other end of the spectrum... telling everyone you were going to call the BLM to make sure that we were just in wheeling in an OPEN spot... now you have the "live it up for tomorrow it will be gone" attitude.

We do have a legal leg to stand on.... Face it, we have equal rights to public land. Groups like BCC and USAALL work to protect their rights, cleanups and trail fix's also help protect those rights... but responsible wheeling (comps in this case) is the key to protecting that right.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Originally posted by spencurai
....and it will eventually be closed....like every other place on the planet and there isn't a damn thing you can do to stop it....

With attitudes like that, your probably right...

 

[spencurai]

Originally posted by cruiseroutfit


Funny, a couple months ago you were on the other end of the spectrum... telling everyone you were going to call the BLM to make sure that we were just in wheeling in an OPEN spot... now you have the "live it up for tomorrow it will be gone" attitude.

We do have a legal leg to stand on.... Face it, we have equal rights to public land. Groups like BCC and USAALL work to protect their rights, cleanups and trail fix's also help protect those rights... but responsible wheeling (comps in this case) is the key to protecting that right.

funny a couple months ago...you still thought you could debate.....

let me clarify,

the environmentalists standpoint is that WE DON't have the right to be on public land if we are going to destroy the natural landscape.....we are trying to say it is ok for us to be on the public land even if we do destroy the natural landscape....

who is right....that is for the courts to decide I guess....I am saying get it on public land....and get it on private land with permission....you obviously need to put down the math book and pick up some reading comprehension Mr. future engineer....I thought I was being perfectly clear....this is a devil's advocate excercise....don't make me hit you with the clue-by-4

this new rofl smiley is awesome!!

 

[sukaB]

STOP IT.......

Be nice.

 

[mbryson]

Originally posted by spencurai



funny a couple months ago...you still thought you could debate.....

let me clarify,

the environmentalists standpoint is that WE DON't have the right to be on public land if we are going to destroy the natural landscape.....we are trying to say it is ok for us to be on the public land even if we do destroy the natural landscape....

who is right....that is for the courts to decide I guess....I am saying get it on public land....and get it on private land with permission....you obviously need to put down the math book and pick up some reading comprehension Mr. future engineer....I thought I was being perfectly clear....this is a devil's advocate excercise....don't make me hit you with the clue-by-4

this new rofl smiley is awesome!!

My personal opinion is that we do have the right to public land on established roads. However, we do have the RESPONSIBILITY to stay on the established roads and only make modifications with the appropriate 'land managers' {government agency}.

What exactly do you mean by 'get it'? If you are 'getting it' within the bounds of the trail or road, I think you are fine and totally support that. If you 'get it' whereever you'd like, I'd like to slash your tires.......

 

[spencurai]

Originally posted by mbryson



My personal opinion is that we do have the right to public land on established roads. However, we do have the RESPONSIBILITY to stay on the established roads and only make modifications with the appropriate 'land managers' {government agency}.

What exactly do you mean by 'get it'? If you are 'getting it' within the bounds of the trail or road, I think you are fine. If you 'get it' whereever you'd like, I'd like to slash your tires.......

slash my tires huh....thems fightin' words right there....no I don't kick the crap out of public land...I get it legally.

this is quite the conundrum....we have the right to drive on our existing roads....but we don't have the right to adversely affect the environments we visit....which we do by our presence...but can we honestly say that our sport is environmentally friendly....I don't think we have that right AT ALL!!! but do we have a right to exist in our environment with managed impact....for now yes.

do we have the god given right to drive around on slick rock in moab....not necessarily. Do we have the right legally and lawfully right now to drive on existing trails in moab.....right now yes.

will we have that right forever.......it seems like a gigantic problem to educate everyone and their drunken teenage kids to keep their junk on the trail....

we really have to look at this from a backed off standpoint. Nobody that has ever driven a trail can honestly say that they didn't in some way or another adversely affect that trail. Whether it be through erosion, .005oz of oil dripping from some random seal....or some poor seedling you trampled when you rolled off the trail on that wicked hard obstacle....we have to admit that the environment is better off without our presence....

now flipping the coin.....

Dammit, I like moving earth. I like flogging the piss outta my swampers and chucking rocks all over hell and back. Do I worry about erosion on trails....NO!! Do I lay awake at night worrying about that seedling I just mowed over to get around a tough spot.....NO!!! Am I concerned about a vehicle in our group puking it's coolant all over the trail....HELL NO!! but obviously someone somewhere driving a subaru wearing birkinstocks does and they have more money and political clout than we do and it is only a matter of time before those birkinstocks are the only tread marks on the trail I used to pound the snot out of with my 4X4 so enjoy it while you can because USA-ALL is goin outta business and I have to pay rent this month so I can't help out the cause.

Is prohibiting 4X4 comps in moab good for our hobby....maybe....but are we just slowing the inevitable?

 

[mbryson]

Originally posted by spencurai


slash my tires huh....thems fightin' words right there....no I don't kick the crap out of public land...I get it legally.
..............

That's all I needed to know. You alluded to the fact that you were going to do whatever you please and I just wanted a little clarification. Knife is sheathed.....

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Originally posted by mbryson
...My personal opinion is that we do have the right to public land on established roads. However, we do have the RESPONSIBILITY to stay on the established roads and only make modifications with the appropriate 'land managers' {government agency}...

Bingo!

It is a right but along with that right comes a huge responsibility. But having the "live it now" attitude in my opinion is not reponsible.

 

[spencurai]

back on topic...how is it irresponsible to have a LIVE NOW attitude...I refuse to tip-toe down trails...but I also don't condone obvious abuse....

 

[mbryson]

Originally posted by spencurai


..................
back on topic...how is it irresponsible to have a LIVE NOW attitude...I refuse to tip-toe down trails...but I also don't condone obvious abuse....

I don't have any problem with your 'LIVE NOW attitude' as long as you stay within the bounds of the trail and aren't a pain to be on a trail ride with. I plan to share them with my kids and expect that they may want to share them with theirs. The roads that are there, are there. Any taxpayer should be able to use them as a right because we pay for their maintenance. Bang your sh!t up all you want.

 

[spencurai]

anyone that has every wheeled with me can never claim I was a pain to be on the trail with....well maybe that incident with the AK-47 and the juniper....or maybe the 12 gauge and the juniper.....or maybe the ar-15 and the juniper.....but that is all water under the bridge....hey blacksheep....where are those pictures already!!