Debate over RS and Con----Why are we as 4WD enthusiasts our own worst enemy at times?

[mbryson]

Debate over RattleSnake and Constrictor----Why are we are own worst enemy????????????

OK.....I'm sick of the 'sh!tty' attitudes and posts. Every time a new 'sacred' (they are, it's our land and our hobby---OURS, not mine, not yours, not his, not hers, OURS) trail, we have the same kind of debate. There was whining about the RattleSnake trail getting too hard. People heard that and reopened an old trail for semi-Extreme to EXTREME use......it's now getting changed and not in natural ways.......


OK..........CLEAN........KEEP IT CLEAN. This will be moderated! Did I mention that I want it clean? I would like to see a CIVIL DISCUSSION about the issues of each trail. Did I mention that I want to see this stay clean and avoid name calling. The past is the past.....that only causes arguments. The future is the only thing we have ANY control over. I'd love to see some solutions and there are some smart people here......

Kurt...........can you work with BLM {since you are connected --nice job!!! } and see if we can get any of the 'solutions' instituted? I LOVE the sign thing. It's like skiing....black diamond, double black diamond, etc.....We might need our own flavor, but it's a great idea.

Did I mention that I don't want to see any bickering?


Here's how I see it.

Rattlesnake---3.0-3.5, 31" tires and maybe a locker required. An 'assist' device could be nice for the waterfall, but it is passable by a skilled driver or someone that is 'committed'.


Constrictor---4.5-5.0+, I shouldn't comment as I've never physically seen this trail. From the pictures that I've seen, 33-35" tires are a requirement and expect body or drivetrain damage. Winch or 'buddy' required. IF YOU CAN'T DO RATTLESNAKE, STAY AWAY. This trail is not for the people that 'pave' trails.

TRAIL ETIQUETTE:
1) Stacking rocks to help someone over an obstacle is fine......not putting them back where you found them isn't.

2) Trail Trash---clean up after yourself and someone else. EVERY 'big league' wheeler I've run a trail with has ALWAYS taught me something. THIS IS PROBABLY THE MOST IMPORTANT as it's the most visible thing we can do to promote our sport. Take out more than you bring in. If we can establish that as a 'pride' thing, maybe it will catch on?
---carnage trash- So you break on the trail. It happens to everybody. Carry something, a plastic bag or whatever, a fold-up shovel and some pride in 'leaving it like you found it' and clean up any spilled liquids. If you dump something on the rock, at least clean up the 'wet' stuff, and try some sand or other trail dirt to draw out the 'stain' left on the rock.

3) Obstacles----Don't we all just love the dude that will try an obstacle for 30 minutes .... I'm all for trying obstacles, but if you haven't made it in 4-5 tries......take a strap or cable. This will keep traffic moving along and keep your rig in decent shape 'cuz you won't be busting parts when you're p!ssed after your 29th attempt. Isn't that a courtesy?

4) BE PREPARED---Boy Scouts are, why aren't we? We are 'out there' by design. Bring some munchies, drinks and a few tools. Things 'happen' when you 'get away' and you need to be ready for almost anything. No one needs to bring as much as the 'Tool Shed', but some basic stuff can be stuck in a tool bag and tucked under the seat of a Sami or Wrangler (or whatever). First aid stuff, and a fire extinguisher could be pretty nice, huh?

5) BYPASSES-----WTF????? I've NEVER understood and NEVER will understand those. I HATE seeing those on trails such as Pritchett Canyon (or anywhere else for that matter---Hell's Revenge shouldn't have those, IMHO....if you can't do the trails 'signature' obstacles there are MANY other trails.....go do those---ride along with someone if you must do the 'hard' trails). If you can't do the obstacles in that trail DON'T GO THERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There are MANY trails for you. Try stacking some rocks and being winched up. Don't impact the surrounding area. Please remember to put the stacked rocks back where you found them.

Did I mention that I don't want to see any bickering?
Now.....I'd like to see any of the above discussed. Quote it, respond to it so we know what you are saying. When this discussion is done, I'll assemble ALL bulletted points.


That's my rant of the moment........I reserve the right to change my opinion, but you MUST persuade me (nicely, did I mention this will be moderated?) to add or change 'rules' but I'm very willing to do so.


NOTE: ANY AND ALL off topic posts (hijacking, etc.) WILL BE REMOVED. No notification will be given ........civil conversation and debate are actually encouraged. Stick to the topic. IF you have something else to say, quote a topic and start a new thread.....

 

[mbryson]

btt???----I thought there'd be 50 posts by now....

 

[Greg]

Originally posted by mbryson
btt???----I thought there'd be 50 posts by now....

I think they are scared of being over-Moderated.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Originally posted by mbryson
...Kurt...........can you work with BLM {since you are connected --nice job!!! } and see if we can get any of the 'solutions' instituted? I LOVE the sign thing. It's like skiing....black diamond, double black diamond, etc.....We might need our own flavor, but it's a great idea....

EZ and I have talked about working with the BLM on the entire 5-Mile Pass Area. The BLM coordinators for this area are super-freindly to our sport. They have seen the turnouts that we offer when they host "Earth Day Cleanups" and they know just as well as we do that it is the minority ruining it for others.

I think that with a some planning and alot of public support, we could easily see more trails in this area. signage would not be a huge issue as the plan develops.

You must realize that the BLM wants more areas for us to wheel just as much as the next person... they see how the growth of motorsports combined with huge land/trail losses has affected the areas that are still open.

I'de like to hear some more ideas about signage, trail ratings, etc... from othere users here. Also remember that we must consider the needs of the other users in the area, dirtbikes, ATV's etc, they have needs as well.

Lets here it...

 

[RockMonkey]

Maybe you said it all? It would be nice to have a real trail system at 5MP, with bulletproof signs at each trail head that clearly state what to expect. The sign at Constrictor should say something to the effect of "this is an extreme trail and should only be attempted by those with equipment capable of traversing it without altering the trail" or something like that. I think Shwan had a good idea of putting a "trail filter" right at the beginning. Two big bolders that you have to get over to even start the trail Those not prepared for the trail will not get past the boulders. Trail filters are cool.

 

[RockMonkey]

Dirtbikes and ATVs have needs as well, but is it up to US to build THEIR trails and maintain and sign them? Lets worry about our own trails before we worry about theirs.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Originally posted by RockMonkey
Dirtbikes and ATVs have needs as well, but is it up to US to build THEIR trails and maintain and sign them? Lets worry about our own trails before we worry about theirs.

Good points.... for a couple reasons...

A. Trails like Constrictor, were never intended to be run by ATV's... I don't think they Eagles Nest is a fun obstacle to them...

B. There are already miles and miles of existing ATV-only trails in the area. Not that they are posted as ATV-only, its just a given, narrow, bumpy, etc...

But, working along with them will only make our cause stronger... once again, I am sure the Utah Trail Machine Association will be there on 9/20/03, so that is a good time to start comparing ideas with other users.

 

[mbryson]

Originally posted by RockMonkey
Maybe you said it all? It would be nice to have a real trail system at 5MP, with bulletproof signs at each trail head that clearly state what to expect. The sign at Constrictor should say something to the effect of "this is an extreme trail and should only be attempted by those with equipment capable of traversing it without altering the trail" or something like that. I think Shwan had a good idea of putting a "trail filter" right at the beginning. Two big bolders that you have to get over to even start the trail Those not prepared for the trail will not get past the boulders. Trail filters are cool.

I'm for trail filters as much as you are. They are usually good indicators of the trail beyond.

What off-road area has the signs with the trail ratings....Is it Johnson valley? I'd love to see some signs that indicate a 'difficulty' level. The skier thing would work, but is there something else already utilized somewhere else we could adopt that might make it 'mainstream' use for other off-road areas?

I've also heard issues with signs about them being destroyed. Any ideas there?

 

[RockMonkey]

Yup, Johnson Valley has signs. The signs need to be nice enough to not look junky and ugly, yet very durable (as I said "bulletproof"). Perhaps some kind of plaque bolted to an existing rockface would satisfy the requirments? I can't think of any such rocks at the begining of Constrictor. A big peice of steel pipe cemented into the ground with a 1/4" steel plate welded to it would make a durable sign, but it would also be ugly as sin. Wood would look better, but we'd be constantly rebuilding them.

 

[mbryson]

Originally posted by cruiseroutfit


................

But, working along with them will only make our cause stronger... once again, I am sure the Utah Trail Machine Association will be there on 9/20/03, so that is a good time to start comparing ideas with other users.

Amen.....All off-road interest need to make our voices heard. Use your vote and your right to contact your representatives. Mail is the best solution, but I think e-mail will grow with validity over time..... {do both}

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Originally posted by mbryson
...Amen.....All off-road interest need to make our voices heard. Use your vote and your right to contact your representatives. Mail is the best solution, but I think e-mail will grow with validity over time.....

Luckily for us, the other interests (ATV's, Dirtbikes) are just as interested in land issues as we are. There are a couple of forums/lists that enable us to chat with other users about needs. As soon as we have some decent ideas, I will start communicating with them.

 

[mbryson]

Originally posted by Greg


I think they are scared of being over-Moderated.

Hey, watch it.....that moderator is a bastid....

 

[RockMonkey]

Why not go over there and post a link to this thread? It'd be nice to have some input from a different point of view.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Originally posted by RockMonkey
Why not go over there and post a link to this thread? It'd be nice to have some input from a different point of view.

Will do...

 

[allterrain]

Todd Adams from U4 and others have worked for years out there with Britta and have GPS'd the entire area. The ATV community is very active and we have a good chance of getting everything we want out there if we do it right. There has been one "difficult person" in the BLM and DWR offices that has given us some greif in the past and assumed a Roscoe P. Coletrain personality, but he is being taken care from within the dept. now it seems. My thanks to you who care enough to "make something happen" out there. The BLM office in SLC is aware of your desires and if we are patient and persistent, it will happen. Please coordinate your energy with U4 and USA-ALL since they have resources and connections with land managers and bring some past experience along as well.

Keep it up. If you want to put a proposal together and bring it to the next U4 meeting we will give you our input and some historical info on the area and key players and get behind it 100%. Last Wednesday of the month, 6:30 PM at LHM Jeep.

You guys rock!

Alan

 

[britney]

Why are we our own worst enemy?

Selfish, Selfih, Selfish.
Too many people think they have an open mind till certain topics are brought up. Everyone wheels thier own way and pretty much stick to the attitude that's how it should be. Problem is, you aren't in charge. In fact noone is. The best thing we can do is discuss it and ..........COMPROMISE!!

That's the problem with the tree-huggers. They don't want to compromise cause "they are right!!". Fighting amongst ourselves only weakens our "team" and strenghens their fight. They can't have the leverage that we don't even support ourselves.


Mbryson, I think you did say it all. I like the signs idea.
Maybe their could be scheduled parols like twice a month where we check out what's happening to the trails and with the help of BLM make necessary adjustments. It could be like mentioned before, "This trail adodpted by RME". We could have fundraisers for trail mantenance and signs that would involve everyone that cares, therefore arriving to a compromise of some degree?

 

[Greg]

I saw this on 4x4Wire & thought it totally applied to this subject. (It's a little long)-

Secret Trails

by: John Stewart, Director of Environmental Affairs, UFWDA

BLM Wilderness Boundary Marker, Argus Range, CA
Photo by: John Stewart

Will promoting local trails ultimately kill them? Will the wrong people show up and trash our trails? Can too much awareness of our sport (the hobby that we are all so passionate about) undermine its existence. Should trail riding areas and our favorite backcountry roads remain "our dirty little secret"?"

And, just what is this "dirty little secret"??

The question should not be in terms of to post or not to post information about trails. The ultimate issue is ACCESS to trails; whether they are on private property or public lands. What is crucial to the discussion is an understanding of the opposition to motorized (mechanical) recreation.

Everyone needs to become familiar with the message wilderness advocates are saying and forget about whether they want to publicize a trail or not.

The Wildlands Project web site: http://www.twp.org/

The California Wilderness Coalition (California Wilderness Campaign) touts its support of the Wildlands Project on its web site: http://www.calwild.org/campaigns/cwp.php

To gain a deeper understanding of history and ideology of the Wildlands Project, which has its roots in the Earth First! movement, visit the following web site: http://www.wildlandsprojectrevealed.org/index.html

This site provides information on the Wildlands Project using the words of the founders of the movement, including Dave Forman, one of the founders of Earth First!: http://www.earthfirstjournal.org/efj/primer/WhyEF!.html

Wilderness bills, as well as the movement to remove Dams and Reservoir’s, is just a part of the agenda to bring the Wildlands Project to fruition.

Earth First! describes this campaign on their web site: http://www.earthfirstjournal.org/efj/primer/different.html

As these last two sites reveal, Dave Forman and his followers have no clue as to what will happen to the millions of citizens affected by their (and the main stream environmental organization's goal) to bring the Wildlands Project to fruition, to depopulate 50 percent of the United States and apply restrictions similar or more severe than the Wilderness Act.

No sane person would argue against protecting the environment. Where the danger lies is how you go about it. Do you look to technology and realistic methods to achieve it? Or, do you depopulate regions (displace millions of people) to go backward and return 50 percent of the U.S. to its "natural" state before the Europeans arrived?

The campaign to deconstruct the dams on the Colorado River, Columbia River, Snake River, and other rivers throughout the U.S. will have tremendous impact on our water supplies. The impact is critical in western states which are already facing water shortages. The arid southwestern states of Utah, Arizona, Nevada, as well as California, depend on the water these dams provide to sustain our cities and towns. All western states will have a tremendous impact on energy supplies when the hydroelectric capacity is removed.

As it is now, the need for water around the world is a crisis situation. Mexico already owes us millions of gallons of water we can’t collect. We are currently experiencing drought across the U.S. and are in constant threat of it here in Southern California. The goals of the Wildlands Project and the main stream environmental movement will only add to this crisis. Everyone has head the words of the "energy crisis".

How bad is the drought in the west? Governor Bill Owens of Colorado wants more dams built in order to retain more water for Colorado to deal with the drought at the expense of the states (Arizona, Utah, Nevada and California) below Colorado: http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36%7E23447%7E798823,00.html

In the same article, environmentalist claim they aren’t to blame for the drought because "The reservoirs we have aren't full, and if we had other ones, they would also be nearly empty."

Their policies of pursuing the agenda of removing he existing dams and reservoirs will only make this drought and future droughts worse by removing the capacity to store water.

But, the effects on our economy, national security, and way of life as we know it are not their concerns. As Dave Forman stated:

"We must make this an insecure and inhospitable place for capitalists and their projects... We must reclaim the roads and plowed land, halt dam construction, tear down existing dams, free shackled rivers and return to wilderness millions of tens of millions of acres of presently settled land." -- David Foreman, Earth First! Confessions of an Eco-Warrior

John Davis, editor of Wild Earth Magazine explains the Wildlands Project this way.

"Does all the foregoing mean that Wild Earth and The Wildlands Project advocate the end of industrialized civilization? Most assuredly. Everything civilized must go..." -- John Davis, editor of Wild Earth magazine.

Well known anti-mountain bike crusader Michael J. Vandeman is a supporter of the Wildlands Project. He and his followers are well known flamers on mountain bike message boards. Check out his web site at: http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/overview.htm

On the right hand side of this page are all the activities he wants to ban from the forest. At least he doesn’t discriminate, he wants to ban hiking and rafting also. Check out the other info on his site and you’ll see references to other supporters of the Wildlands Project.

The mainstream environmental movement’s campaign for the Roadless Initiative, their opposition to President Bush’s Health Forest Initiative and active forest management, and the many lawsuits filed to close off areas by the Center for Biological Diversity and others are also part of this campaign.

Now, you say this does not apply as your wheeling opportunities are on discontinued roads and private lands??

I do request that you review the information about The Wildlands Project. It matters not whether you are referencing BLM or Forest Service or private lands or lands managed by a conservancy or a state.

I would suggest you review what is happening in Maine with the various conservancies in other states that are holding private land in trust for "public" benefit. Those conservancies are the means to enact the Wildlands Project using private land acquisitions.

A classic example is playing out in Florida right now: http://www.sawgrassrebellion.org

Note that currently, Florida is about 10% government and 90% private with respect to land ownership. According to the grand plan as outlined under the Wildlands Project, the land ownership is expected to shift to 90% government and 10% private. The long range plan is based on a 100 year evolution.

Now, compare that to what is happening in Maine and other New England states today. While you believe your wheeling is at the grassroots level using discontinued roads and private property, you need to keep in mind that those discontinued roads and private property are a rapidly diminishing source of wheeling opportunities.

Right now, the west is a major battleground. Once controls to access of public lands are secured, controls to private lands will follow. While the prime interest is on preserving "wilderness characteristics" of public lands, the core battle is motorized recreation; on public lands or private lands.

The fight for access to public lands will not be solely in the western states. The eastern states have many of the votes necessary for public land closure. As closure to public lands increases, so do restrictions to recreation on private lands.

They are interrelated. The Wildlands Project is the linkage. North American habitat for all wildlife, including large carnivores, is the goal: 50% of North America in pre-Columbian forest lands.

Do the math. Where do humans and recreation fit into the scheme?

The questions remain: Will promoting local trails ultimately kill them? Will the wrong people show up and trash our trails? Can too much awareness of our sport (the hobby that we are all so passionate about) undermine its existence. Should trail riding areas and our favorite backcountry roads remain "our dirty little secret"?"

Our sport is in the cross-hairs of wilderness zealots. It matters not whether you ride a mountain bike, drive a 4x4, ride a dirt bike, use a wheel chair, or any other form of mechanical means for "off-highway" recreation. The use of public lands for recreation and extraction of critical natural resources is the target.

Even "non-mechanical" means of recreation face restrictions. Rock climbers are passionate about their sport and the physical challenge of climbing a sheer rock wall. Their climbs cannot be achieved without placement of "anchors" in the rock. These "anchors" are a "mechanical means" thereby limiting the access the non-motorized recreationist has to public lands.

It matters not whether you publicize trails or attempt to keep them secret. The wildlands advocates know the lands they want protected. You have nothing to say about their plans. They are in the dictators chair. Your keeping "dirty little secrets" is playing right into their stacked deck.

Keep your trail secret, only you will know that it no longer exists. No one but you will know the recreation opportunity you have lost. Publicize your trail and many people will know when it no longer exists. Continued access to private lands depends on continued access to public lands.

Here's the Link-

4x4Wire

 

[shmoesmith]

I think as far as the trail rating signs go, this is an excelent idea, however I think that alot of people on this board under-rate the trails...I have driven alot of 3.5 and 4 rated trails that are "officially" rated 3.5 or 4 in moab and alot of the trails that people on here give a 3.5 or 4 are actually considerably harder than the ones that were 3.5 or 4 in moab. I think this is due to the users on here owning customer rock crawling shops and competition grade vehicles etc so what would be a 4 rating anywhere else is sudenly just a 3. As a simple example, poison spider messa in moab rated a 4....I thought that rattlesnake was harder than it imho. I think that if any signs and trail ratings were to be posted they should follow generally accepted guidlines such as those in the charles a wells book on moab trails or the redrock 4wheelers in moab give for trails during easter safari. by following these guidlines from either of those 2 sources you get a much more accurate picture of what a trail is going to be like..when I go to moab and get on a 4 or 4+ trail or even a 3 or 3+ I know EXACTLY what to expect, i go somewhere else and get the 4x4 groups general opionion on the trail rating, it tends to be vastly different depending on who is giving the opinion and how built up their rig is.....sorry ramble, just my 2C

-Doug

 

[Maverick]

There's been a plan for this area, with 4x4 routes, signs, etc, that we did with the BLM, that's been sitting on the Gov's desk for about 3-4 years...he hasn't signed it because the area borders on the area affected by the nuke storage stuff (Skull Valley). I'm all for keeping the dialogue going and the trail building going though, so that hopefully this new stuff will be added to the plan.

Anyone got pics of the Hammers signs that we can show Britta?

Kurt, you're "connected"? Wow, and I knew you when...

Brett

Originally posted by cruiseroutfit


EZ and I have talked about working with the BLM on the entire 5-Mile Pass Area. The BLM coordinators for this area are super-freindly to our sport. They have seen the turnouts that we offer when they host "Earth Day Cleanups" and they know just as well as we do that it is the minority ruining it for others.

You must realize that the BLM wants more areas for us to wheel just as much as the next person... they see how the growth of motorsports combined with huge land/trail losses has affected the areas that are still open.

Lets here it...

 

[mbryson]

Originally posted by allterrain
Todd Adams from U4 and others have worked for years out there with Britta and have GPS'd the entire area. The ATV community is very active and we have a good chance of getting everything we want out there if we do it right. There has been one "difficult person" in the BLM and DWR offices that has given us some greif in the past and assumed a Roscoe P. Coletrain personality, but he is being taken care from within the dept. now it seems.

[roscoe] gouuuh, gouuuuh, guh [/roscoe]

Originally posted by allterrain
My thanks to you who care enough to "make something happen" out there. The BLM office in SLC is aware of your desires and if we are patient and persistent, it will happen. Please coordinate your energy with U4 and USA-ALL since they have resources and connections with land managers and bring some past experience along as well.

Keep it up. If you want to put a proposal together and bring it to the next U4 meeting we will give you our input and some historical info on the area and key players and get behind it 100%. Last Wednesday of the month, 6:30 PM at LHM Jeep.

You guys rock!

Alan

EXCELLENT POINTS Alan---I also fully agree that we need to gather a plan, submit it to other interest agencies to get their input and the submit AS A UNIFIED land use group a solution. This is totally a beginning/brainstorming session. IMHO