Goblin Valley vandalism

[Caleb]

In Bizarro World perhaps. Here in the good old Utah, USA, Planet Earth, the fact that they were there as a calling from their church leading a boy scout group IS THE STORY. The rock getting pushed over is a necessary side bar to the story but definitely IS NOT "the story".

Had they been two random, garden variety atheists by themselves, people would still be outraged, but only at the act, and really, just how much controversy can pushing over a rock generate? It would have been over already by now, except on a few SUWA social media outlets. Make them Mormons though, in a position of leadership, over a group of young people, chosen to be put there by their church. Well now, there is some controversy with legs!

BTW... I actually agree that the thread is kind of dumb. Herzog really nailed it in that regard. But I don't agree that the BSA/church thing isn't relevant. Instead of the rock being the important aspect, the rock is just a symbol in a story that reaches more people on a much deeper level. It's one thing to be a solo dum-azz operating on your own without any guidelines or other peoples children under your supervision to impact with your stupidity. Quite another to do the same dum-azz stuff while acting in a church appointed youth leadership position.

- DAA

Not really, take the rock out of the equation and this is a non-story. A group of scouts went camping at Goblin Valley...non-story. A couple of dumb asses tip over one of the goblins and it's now a nation-wide story. Only in Utah is this turned in to a story about how terrible BSA is and how terrible the LDS church is, and how terrible it is that the LDS church supports the BSA program. For example, story on CNN about them being released by the BSA (not the LDS church mind you, which is really who they would be released by), http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/21/us/utah-boulder-boy-scouts/ mentioned nothing about being called to that calling by the LDS church. Only in Utah is it assumed (correct or not) that the LDS church is somehow responsible for every action these retards take because they are scout leaders.

I agree that's it's a terrible example they've portrayed for their scouts, but in no way is the LDS church or BSA responsible or should even be affiliated with their poor decisions.

 

[DAA]

... in no way is the LDS church or BSA responsible or should even be affiliated with their poor decisions.

Sorry, but no way I can even come close to agreeing with that.

Those guys were chosen to represent the organization as leaders. For purposes of this discussion, LDS and BSA are one and the same (just the way it is around here...). You can put any acronym or imagine any organization you choose in place of LDS/BSA though. It wouldn't matter. The point is that these guys were there representing that organization in a leadership position and the organization absolutely SHOULD be affiliated with the poor decisions they so publicly made while operating in that leadership/representation role.

How could they not be?

If, while representing the organization I work for, that is, while engaged in leading an activity on behalf of the company, I do something in public and it draws blowback and negative publicity - it's going to reflect poorly on my company. No ifs, ands, buts, or getting around it. Those guys were there in an official capacity, what they did DOES reflect poorly on the organization that put them in that position. And it dang well should. Again, take LDS/BSA away and replace it with AFL/CIO or NAACP or IBM or NASA or whatever outfit you want. You really trying to tell me that if one of those orgs put together this youth outing they wouldn't be taking some heat over it and rightly so?

Saying it shouldn't, is like saying an Eagle Scouts service project, or any positive public activities should not reflect well on the BSA.

Can't have it both ways.

Just my opinion... looking at the structure that resulted in putting such morons in that position is totally valid. Just so happens, that in this particular instance, it's the church - since the church and the scouts are one and the same around here, for practical purposes. And, it has been suggested by active scouting participants in this thread, that therein lies some portion of the root of the issue, that "calling" someone to do this job, just might not be the best way to fill these positions? Just maybe?

- DAA

 

[RockMonkey]

BSA officially removed them as leaders today. Probably trying to cover their asses. There is plenty of accountability to go around here.

 

[jackjoh]

DAA, are you saying that only LDS/BSA leaders make mistakes? If that is so why do we have the government we have since we are the ones that voted them into office which then means we are stupid. Read my other posts and you should be able to understand that we are all on this earth trying to do our best but we all make mistakes. Also, can you explain why so many boy scouts make Eagle if most of them are LDS/BSA. I think the truth is you do not like LDS/BSA and nothing anyone says would change your mind. I am sorry you feel that way and hope you will keep printing great coyote pictures even though us LDS/BSA guys will benefit from them.

 

[skiboarder]

It does look bad for both organizations. But the decision to knock that rock over lies with those morons. Both the BSA and the LDS church should make their apologies over the incident and remove those guys from their organizations. Then they should let those guys stand alone. Neither organization condones nor promotes such activity. It was those idiots idea at that time to exercise poor judgment. Neither organization should support them any farther then that. DAA if they represent those organizations to the full extent of what you propose. They also represent you. You are a Utahn and an American. I am pretty sure that those guys are that as well. let them stand on their own decision to do something stupid and let them pay for it. Other wise it is like killing the messenger for bad news.

 

[anderson750]

After talking to a friend of mine who works in law enforcement and has a lot of insight into what is going on with this situation, ponder this. Nowhere at the Goblin State Park does it say it is illegal to touch, climb or do anything of that manner to the goblins. In fact, they have always encouraged people to explore, climb and have fun in the park. Was it moronic and a dumba$$ move to film yourself pushing it over.....yes, but technically he has not done anything illegal. Taking out of the picture why he claims he pushed it over, what if they would have been filming a kid climbing up on it and it fell over? Would there be the same outrage?

My opinion on this manner is that the guy is an idiot, but after talking to my friend he made some good points about what really is in play. Due to public pressure, I am sure they will be charged with some type of misdemeanor, but I highly doubt they will get any felony charges that would hold up in a court case. Thanks to these idiots, you will now probably see a lot of new rules show up about what you can and can't do in the park.

 

[Unimog]

This story is just a shame. These 2 or 3 guys are completely responsible for their poor choices and the influence that has on the boys under their direction.

As far as the BSA is concerned, the leader's council, national organization, and neighboring councils have condemned the actions and they have been removed as scouting leaders. I guess the only controversy as far as BSA is concerned is, of all people, these leaders should have received and understood leave no trace principles. I suspect that is one of the reasons for the national attention. Being a leader myself in the Great Salt Lake Council, they have recognized the overwhelming voice of local leaders (the majority of which are LDS) also expressing outrage over the actions of these leaders from a neighboring council.

As far as the LDS church is concerned, I haven't heard any official statement. Based on the training that I personally know the BSA and LDS church recommend, I'd have a hard time pushing the blame for the actions of these adults onto either organization from a legal or ethical standpoint. IMO, those who are trying to do so have their own personal agenda.

 

[Skylinerider]

All Scout leaders should be required to earn the new Outdoor Ethics Award right along with their scouts.

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/OutdoorProgram/OutdoorEthics/Awards/BoyScout.aspx

 

[hans j]

The pamphlet they hand out at the gate does say: "It is unlawful to mutilate or deface any natural or constructed feature or structure. Please help keep out parks beautiful." And the only legislative piece I could find on the subject was related to trespassing. http://le.utah.gov/~2005/bills/sbillint/sb0099.htm found here http://le.utah.gov/search.jsp?Sess=all&String=STATE PARK&Submit=Find. If they go by those rules, someone will have to determine the value of the millions-of-years-in-the-making sculpture. I'm hoping it's a lot...

For me, getting kicked out of the BSA is a start. I wouldn't mind seeing them banned from all Utah State Parks, including our National Parks.

I also wouldn't mind his disability lawsuit getting dropped because he doesn't look too disabled to me.(http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.co...impairment/news/2013/10/20/77125#.UmX8exBW3LQ)

Several hundred hours of community service and teaching PROPER leave no trace ethics would also be nice. I guess either that or jail time... Tim DeChristopher got and served 2 years for bidding up oil leases during a last minute auction of BLM land. He served time for trying to protect land in the same desert this idiot destroyed.

 

[jentzschman]

Serious prison time is needed plus being banned from all public lands permanently.

That's a little over the top, don't you think. If serious prison time is the response to all stupidity, then we should all be in prison. As for being banned from public lands, that I agree with. At least for several years.

We as a society have forgotten about the need for forgiveness. While I am sure some will mock that idea, I think we need to show understanding.

Again, if all stupid decisions ended in prison time and banishment from places where we act, then we wold all be forced to live inour homes the rest of our lives.

 

[DAA]

DAA, are you saying that only LDS/BSA leaders make mistakes?

Nope, not saying that.

Read my other posts... I think the truth is you do not like LDS/BSA and nothing anyone says would change your mind.

Wow... I have read your other posts. Enjoyed them, for the most part. But if you have read mine and the conclusion above is what you have drawn, then I am doing a piss poor job communicating here. I'll just say you are completely wrong about me, and leave it at that.

That's interesting about the possible lack of an actual crime. Not too, too surprising I guess. I think the public shame has been just about enough. Some decent community service hours on top of it would be plenty appropriate I think. No prison time, that would be ridiculous.

- DAA

 

[Unimog]

I think the public shame has been just about enough. Some decent community service hours on top of it would be plenty appropriate I think. No prison time, that would be ridiculous.

^^This. I'm guessing the shame these guys receive from family, friends, and neighbors will be more than enough punishment to change behavior. I'm not interested in retribution, just change and hopefully notice to the next guy who decides to deface public land.

 

[roverrocks]

That's a little over the top, don't you think. If serious prison time is the response to all stupidity, then we should all be in prison. As for being banned from public lands, that I agree with. At least for several years.

We as a society have forgotten about the need for forgiveness. While I am sure some will mock that idea, I think we need to show understanding.

Again, if all stupid decisions ended in prison time and banishment from places where we act, then we wold all be forced to live inour homes the rest of our lives.

The prison time and being banned from public lands is NOT for pushing the rock over but rather for the insane in-your-face arrogance and mindlessness of posting their wanton criminal act plus giggling, laughing and hand slapping in a public video. There are monkey see/ monkey do idiots out there who would imitate this act PLUS this crap just feeds in to the ultra greenie movement that says we (meaning John Q. Public) can't be trusted on our public lands and so everything should be locked up and sealed away from the supposed plundering and land raping herds of the average citizens. Hit these boobs hard I say. Hard.

 

[skiboarder]

No prison. They need some jail time, public service, and a public apology. Broadcast the apology on YouTube.

 

[anderson750]

I'm surprised there's no rules against vandalism posted or not. I feel like that is a law that needs no posting. I don't have a sign at my home that says it's illegal to deface my property but you can bet there's a penalty for it.

It all boils down to what could stand up in a court of law if he was charged with something and decided to fight it. Interprative and assumed are different than written.

 

[jackjoh]

I am sure I owe you an apology but not sure why and know from your posts you are good people. My life was literately turned around by the LDS church (would have been dead a long time ago) and I have been in scouting about 40 + years so I get very defensive about both. I will go back and re-read your posts to understand my take on the matter.

 

[ZUKEYPR]

They really have an outdoors ethic badge now? ignorance of the law is not a valid defense in a court of law. That said though get to plea bargain to community service at state parks or better yet make the yahoos come up with a community outreach educational plan and have them execute it at secondary schools so we educate the younger ones so that they don't grow up to wade in the shallow end of the gene pool.

 

[ZUKEYPR]

This thread is quite pathetic. A thread about a couple guys making a bad decision has turned in to a religious bashing thread, then a BSA bashing thread, and now a religious BSA bashing thread...only in Utah would any of that be a discussion when ultimately it's ONLY about a couple of guys being stupid. The fact that they were there as a calling from their church with a boy scout group is completely irrelevant to the story.

If this is referring to me you couldn't possibly be any more incorrect. My thought is the complete opposite of we, the non organized religious folks, being bashed, for not possibly being able to have a moral compass. Again morals come from within, it's not exclusive to organized religion. Every sector in life, every social class, every race, every sex, every religious preference, every sub-culture......well you get the point has their good people and there village idiots.

 

[Caleb]

If this is referring to me you couldn't possibly be any more incorrect. My thought is the complete opposite of we, the non organized religious folks, being bashed, for not possibly being able to have a moral compass. Again morals come from within, it's not exclusive to organized religion. Every sector in life, every social class, every race, every sex, every religious preference, every sub-culture......well you get the point has their good people and there village idiots.

Nope, not you or any other single person but the thread as a whole.

 

[ZUKEYPR]

Cool