Gold Bar Rim, "the water fall"

[thenag]

The obstacle on gold bar rim, which I have heard called "the water fall" or "slide rock" gave me issues the other day, I got up it but had to pull my father in law up, which is not a straight pull and not super easy.

Anyway I was wondering if it was just an off day or it really has gotten so much more dug out. I googled for pictures and it doesn't look that different, other than it didn't have a huge pile of rocks at the bottom on monday.

In my full size bronco I never had any issues going up it, even before I had lockers. in 2010 we had a group and the only one that needed a tug was a guy with a carbed cj that he couldn't keep running. I know that group had some short cj's with 33 inch tires, we also had a xj with 33's and open diffs go right up it too.

On Monday I had to bump the crap out of it to get our xj up it. The xj is lighter than my old bronco and has amazed me with how well it climbs everything. My xj has locked front and rear with 37's on it, wider than normal but stock xj length.

I know in years past I have seen tons of near stock vehicles go right up that thing.

So has anybody else noticed that, that obstacle has gotten significantly harder lately?

Thanks

Nathan
99 xj with stuff

 

[TJDukit]

I remember last year having issues on it with my TJ on 33's open front, spool in the rear. It took quite a few tries and had to bump the crap out of it every time my front tires were both coming off the ground and was one of the few obstacles that actually made me pucker all day. That has been the only time I've been up there so far.

 

[Cody]

The last time I did it was almost exactly a year ago in my ZJ on 35's. It just crawled right up. I could see how that could get dug out/eroded over time though.

Rock Chucker on Metal Masher however, that has been dug out. I used to get up fairly easily in a ZJ open on 33's, the last couple years I had to hammer it pretty good in my locked ZJ on 35's to get up. All the other ZJ's were denied (but also didn't commit fully on the first shot and were then slid off of their line....and were also missing front center limit straps). I'm also awesome, which might have helped.

 

[I Lean]

Do you have anything limiting your front axle from drooping out? That can/will make a HUGE difference in how easily it will climb steep things. (just ask Cody )

 

[sixstringsteve]

I did it last year with TJ Dukit, and my yota on 35's with a 120" wheelbase crawled right up it. We did engage the super low gears just to make sure. Obstacles change from day to day. Some days I struggle on the hard stuff, some days I struggle on the easy stuff.

 

[zukijames]

Temperature makes a big difference down there atleast with Iroks.
100 degrees outside I can crawl stuff just fine.. Midnight in October I spin tires all over the place

 

[littlyota]

I did this trail on Saturday. I blew right up it. I actually hit it a little to hard and flew over the top. Had to stand on the brakes not to hit the wall.

I do not think it has changed much over the past few years. I am on 36's locked front and rear.

Now I have seen many people struggle and even a few break stuff on that hill. It gets some folks pretty good some times. I we had to winch 3 others up on Saturday. They all had open fronts. One guy with open front and rear made it up.


As others said, some days are different. I got smoked on UpChuck on behind the rocks. That has never happen to me.

 

[thenag]

Do you have anything limiting your front axle from drooping out? That can/will make a HUGE difference in how easily it will climb steep things. (just ask Cody )

Carl, I know you are one of the suspension gods here... So how do I figure out how long to make a center limit strap? (since it sounds like I need one)

That is a big difference from the Bronco to the xj, the bronco's droop was limited by leafs. Ah simple leafs, natural anti-roll, stupid easy to tune, and self limiting... (of course they don't actually keep the axle in a predictable place...)

nathan

 

[I Lean]

Carl, I know you are one of the suspension gods here... So how do I figure out how long to make a center limit strap? (since it sounds like I need one)

That is a big difference from the Bronco to the xj, the bronco's droop was limited by leafs. Ah simple leafs, natural anti-roll, stupid easy to tune, and self limiting... (of course they don't actually keep the axle in a predictable place...)

nathan

It all depends on your driving style. You could make it nearly tight at ride height and it would work well for crawling, but would be noticeable (not in a good way) when driving fast--you'd be yanking on the strap all the time making your ride quality suffer. That's where a winch hooked to the front axle is nice, it's an adjustable limit strap. If you want a don't-think-about-it, always-there strap, I'd set it somewhere around 2"-3" of droop from ride height, and call it a day.

 

[Kevin B.]

Do you have anything limiting your front axle from drooping out? That can/will make a HUGE difference in how easily it will climb steep things. (just ask Cody )

That seems counter intuitive. I would have thought that a drooping axle would be more likely to keep the tires on the ground, why is it bad?

 

[Herzog]

That seems counter intuitive. I would have thought that a drooping axle would be more likely to keep the tires on the ground, why is it bad?

He's talking about full center droop sometimes caused by anti-squat/dive and most often a problem with air-shocks in the front. This is why a lot of people run a winch down to their front axle in order to suck the chassis down and hold it during a steep climb because a lot of the time the chassis wants to push away and raise up which shifts the weight of the vehicle rearward making it more difficult to climb.

 

[I Lean]

That seems counter intuitive. I would have thought that a drooping axle would be more likely to keep the tires on the ground, why is it bad?

....which shifts the weight of the vehicle rearward making it more difficult to climb.

The key is the last bit of what Herzog said. If you imagine the extreme scenario it might help visualize what happens:

Your rig has a 50/50 front/rear weight distribution. You pull up on a steep hill, let's say 45 degrees. If nothing on the suspension moves, you'll have more weight on the rear axle--let's say it's now 75% rear 25% front. (without actually calculating anything)

Now the same hill, same rig...but the front suspension lifts up so the body now is at 60 degrees instead of 45. Now you have 90% of the weight on the rear axle, 10% on the front. You just lost a BUNCH of traction up front, but haven't altered the vehicle or obstacle, just the front suspension's droop.

 

[Cody]

I used about 1-2" of drop on my front strap. I was also setup with like 3" of up travel and 9 of down. It makes a WORLD of difference on the front end of a TJ/XJ/ZJ/WJ

 

[DerekM]

Where would you even mount a center strap? In a V shape and bolted to the frame?

 

[thenag]

Where would you even mount a center strap? In a V shape and bolted to the frame?

My xj will soon have a cross member to brace the drop down trac bar bracket, I will put a tab on that, then a tab on the axle.

(I like how this is something I never knew I needed and in a few hours I have it all figured out...)


nathan

 

[I Lean]

Even just a single strap from one motor mount to the center of the axle works. Put it on the passenger side if you do that, so it sorta opposes the panhard bar angle on droop.

If you have a nice crossmember, that makes things way too easy. Just make sure your tabs don't hit on compression, or you'll cut your own strap. (ask me how I know )

 

[Kevin B.]

He's talking about full center droop sometimes caused by anti-squat/dive and most often a problem with air-shocks in the front. This is why a lot of people run a winch down to their front axle in order to suck the chassis down and hold it during a steep climb because a lot of the time the chassis wants to push away and raise up which shifts the weight of the vehicle rearward making it more difficult to climb.

The key is the last bit of what Herzog said. If you imagine the extreme scenario it might help visualize what happens:

Your rig has a 50/50 front/rear weight distribution. You pull up on a steep hill, let's say 45 degrees. If nothing on the suspension moves, you'll have more weight on the rear axle--let's say it's now 75% rear 25% front. (without actually calculating anything)

Now the same hill, same rig...but the front suspension lifts up so the body now is at 60 degrees instead of 45. Now you have 90% of the weight on the rear axle, 10% on the front. You just lost a BUNCH of traction up front, but haven't altered the vehicle or obstacle, just the front suspension's droop.

I grok, thanks guys.

 

[I Lean]

I grok, thanks guys.

Quoted for posterity.

 

[thenag]

The key is the last bit of what Herzog said. If you imagine the extreme scenario it might help visualize what happens:

Your rig has a 50/50 front/rear weight distribution. You pull up on a steep hill, let's say 45 degrees. If nothing on the suspension moves, you'll have more weight on the rear axle--let's say it's now 75% rear 25% front. (without actually calculating anything)

Now the same hill, same rig...but the front suspension lifts up so the body now is at 60 degrees instead of 45. Now you have 90% of the weight on the rear axle, 10% on the front. You just lost a BUNCH of traction up front, but haven't altered the vehicle or obstacle, just the front suspension's droop.

so would a center rear limit strap help keep from flipping dropping off? (I don't need a stinger I have a spare tire lol)

nathan

 

[I Lean]

so would a center rear limit strap help keep from flipping dropping off? (I don't need a stinger I have a spare tire lol)

nathan

By the same logic, sure it might help...I've never tried.