Good & Bad of Biodiesel???

[C22]

My family has a convenient store located in Bountiful (east bench area, not close to the freeway, no diesel stations in our immediate area). We are in the process of bringing diesel to our store and I want to hear the good and bad of biodiesel compared to standard diesel (we have a Conoco/Phillips branded station).

I don't know the specifics on what blend we would sell (I know our rep is pushing us to not go bio, not sure why?).

I'd appreciate any feedback you have.

 

[Milner]

We have discussed bio here a little....

I run only b20 or higher in both our diesel vehicles ('06 Liberty and 95 PSD).
The Libby has had it since day one and the PSD for the last 3 years. During the summer the PSD gets b100 and the libby b50. Both b20 all winter.

After the first 2-3 tanks of bio in the truck, I changed the fuel filter and have not needed to change it since. Bio DOES NOT clog filters, it cleans out all the residue left from years of dino. Using dino, I had to replace that same filter every 6-9 months. Again 2 years plus on the filter in there now! We all know how loud PSD's are, not mine. There is a very noticable difference in the noise level!! It also idles MUCH smoother. Even as quiet an smooth as the Libby is, it is noticabley better on bio.

MPG's There is a lot of propaganda on both sides, but my experience is what I believe....got to see it with my own eyes....The PSD has been consistantly 1.5mpg better on bio, closer to 2 mpg on b100. (I have had the truck for 6 years) The Libby has had a few tanks of dino when we have been on road trips. It seems to show about the same 1-2mpg increase on bio mixxes.

I also notice a difference in the oil in the PSD when I change it. Since running bio in it the oil is not nearly as black when I change it at the same intervals and use conditions. Even the smell is not as bad. Not as sooty. In addition, with the intro of Ultra low sulfar, I feel the motors NEED the added lubrication of bio!

We bought the libby specifically because it was diesel and it could run Bio. We we go on road trios, I search the internet for stations with Bio, we drive out of our way at home and on vacation to get Bio. If I can't find bio, I put enough dino in to just make it to the next station with Bio! We use 4 stations in SLC that have bio.

JMHO, I feel you will gain more customers because of Bio, then you will loose because of it. The large masses do not care or know the difference. The vast majority of those that do about bio, SEEK IT OUT. I even purchase my gas from the stations I get bio, just because I like to support them for selling bio. I strongly believe that Bio is the diesel of the future. I really see no downside in using it. For a retailer, it is a slight risk, but I bet the payoff in the end will be better. And you get the warm fuzzys from doing something good for the environment and from not giving as much $$ to big oil companys!!!!

If you could tell I am a Bio fan:greg:

 

[cruiseroutfit]

My pops put a tank of bio in his Dodge... ended up costing him $1200 for the injectors and lift pump it destroyed (actually the junk it washed through as Marc pointed out). Seems the dealership is getting trucks on a regular basis with the same situation.

 

[C22]

Thanks for the feedback.

Does the price of bio seem to stay in line with diesel? I know right now our price on bio would be cheaper, but the rep claims in general it's higher (probably depends on the blend as well, I would guess).

Marc, you mention the different blends, do stations offer more than one blend usually?

Kurt's story is what kind of freaks you out as a business owner, bring in a product and have people pissed because it cleaned the lines a bit too good.

Thanks again, I like hearing real world experiences vs. what our sales rep wants us to know.

 

[Milner]

Thanks for the feedback.

Does the price of bio seem to stay in line with diesel? I know right now our price on bio would be cheaper, but the rep claims in general it's higher (probably depends on the blend as well, I would guess).

Marc, you mention the different blends, do stations offer more than one blend usually?

Kurt's story is what kind of freaks you out as a business owner, bring in a product and have people pissed because it cleaned the lines a bit too good.

Thanks again, I like hearing real world experiences vs. what our sales rep wants us to know.

Bio has been the same or cheaper since I have been buying it....
B100 always being the cheapest....Right now b20 and dino are about the same....Seems more depends on the location/overhead of the station then the product....B20 in Midvale today is $2.90 and at the Mouth of Millcreek Canyon it is $3.02....
I have seen stations with everything from b5 to b100 at the pump. The one by milcreek is b50, state and 80th south has dino/b20/b50/b100, midvale has b20/b50, 2100S and W Temple has B20 as does 33rd and 2nd east....Jackson hole we got b20, all the sinclairs are b5 around Vegas. Lots of b20 all over Idahoe and Colorado....
Lots of info and links to maps here http://www.biodiesel.org/

 

[cruiseroutfit]

...Kurt's story is what kind of freaks you out as a business owner, bring in a product and have people pissed because it cleaned the lines a bit too good....

Yup, same thing happend to fellow WC'er Gary Tsujimoto... he put a tank of bio in his Duramax... Him and Dan Davis ended up getting a tow from Delta

Andre ran his homebrew bio in his Cummins FJ55, in one Moab trip he replace 3 fuel filters...

While I think its a noble concept... I can't imagine dealing with a customer that is going to sue you over a repair bill due to bio-diesel. My dad is pretty isn't really into trucks & such... so when he gassed up at a Sinclair, he figured bio-diesel was OK to run, otherwise they would have a warning or something right?? Nope... a few days out of his truck and a some $$$ later he is back on the road.

 

[waynehartwig]

Why woudl some have problems like this and some not? It seems I hear of more not having problems and then the occasional one having bad problems like Kurt's dad. I could see everyone having the filter issue.. Diesel is some nasty stuff (dirty).

 

[C22]

Yup, same thing happend to fellow WC'er Gary Tsujimoto... he put a tank of bio in his Duramax... Him and Dan Davis ended up getting a tow from Delta

Yeah, I was following Gary when that happened. It was his Cummins, and it was crazy how quickly it affected his truck (he filled up on the west side of Delta and within a few miles turned around and found us so we could follow him back to Salt Lake, made it to Spanish Fork).

Kurt, do you know what blend your dad put in his Dodge and how long before he noticed issues?

Thanks, keep the info coming. I'll check out that biodiesel site Marc.

 

[Herzog]

If I'm not mistaken, you need to modify the a few things to run Bio on newer model diesels that were designed for the ULSD. That's probably why they had problems right off the bat...

What year were these trucks that had problems?

 

[cruiseroutfit]

...Kurt, do you know what blend your dad put in his Dodge and how long before he noticed issues?....

B20, it ran fine from PC to Sandy... but the next mornging it was dead... he was able to get it to stumble down the street to the dealer. According to them, biodiesel is forbidden by the owners manual in his 03' Cummins.

I forgot Gary was in his Cummins... mabey its just a Dodge thing?

 

[Milner]

The worst thing is the lack of regulation on Bio....I always research who I am buying from and make sure they adhear to ASTM D6751 or BQ-9000 standards.
Also beware of stations that have newly switched from dino to a bio....that same build up that bio cleans out of your truck, it also cleans out of the station tanks and systems!
I would bet there are hundreds of people a day just in SLC filling with a bio blend and not even realizing it....with at least a half dozen stations selling b20 or higher. Sure there are bound to be occassional problems....But a bad tank of dino can cause the same an worse problems. Anybody ever fill up from a station with too much water in the system? I remember when the Flying J on 106th had to write gillett a blank check because they filled their diesel tanks with gas!!!! (p.o. of my PSD got new injectors that way)

If you choose to run bio, make sure it is coming from a trusted source and is up to standards. It is up to the retailer at this point, as bio is not nationally regulated like dino fuels....
Also dealerships have been known to use bio as a scape goat to deny warranties when the actual problem lies else where....There are a lot of politics involved in automakers and oil companies when it comes to bio....With all the rehteric it is hard to trust what they say....

I am not sure about the 2007 and newer, but I know several people running bio in 2006 vehicles, including me.....

For me, I drove a 2006 from the dealer to the station and the first tank ever in it was b20!! I plan on 300k plus on this motor....only time will tell.

 

[Milner]

One more link
http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/fuelfactsheets/

 

[BrockSampson]

I would run bio in a heartbeat if I didn't have to drive 20 miles to get it. A filling station in Bountiful would be awsome.

rckcrlr
Would it be best to run a low blend in a vehicle that has never had it. Slowly working up to the higher blends?

 

[Milner]

I would run bio in a heartbeat if I didn't have to drive 20 miles to get it. A filling station in Bountiful would be awsome.

rckcrlr
Would it be best to run a low blend in a vehicle that has never had it. Slowly working up to the higher blends?

Probably, not sure, but I did start out with b20 in the PSD, then 50, then 100....
Check the links above, lots of info there!!

 

[jet_aj]

the local sinclar station switched over to bio a while back, UPS uses them to fill all their trucks and according to a friend at ups they had no idea they switched over. didnt notice any difference in power/ect... but i think they all use PowerStroke engines and their new ones are mercadees (spelling?). Maybe it is a cummins thing... but then again i've installed new cummins engines in some mine equipment and never had any problems with it in them... BUT, they were NEW engines and fuel systems...
thats what i've dealt with.
My boss has a 99 Powerstroke with 400,000 on it and uses bio diesel when he fills up here in town and hasn't ever had any problems with it.
good luck.

 

[dieslcruisrhead]

If it helps since 06 Cummins fully warantees up to B20 blends and in fact both it and the Jeep Liberty CRD come with anywhere from B5-B20 in the tank from the factory. On the trip back from Moab I did replace 3 filters but because my fuel pin (common problem on Gen 1 Cummins, you have to free it up every couple of years) was sticking, no other issues. I thought the unexplained lack of power might have been a filter or bad biodiesel but it turned out to be the pin. I plan on running 100% bio all the time in the new rig when its done and will be installing a heated system to run it in winter too.

It does clean out your tank and sometimes there is more water in biodiesel related to poor manufacturing specs for commercial grade biodiesel. They supposedly just updated this with a new ASTM spec, 6754-06 or something like that. All biodiesel manufacturers have to comply with it to produce "biodiesel." That said I'll believe it when I see it as these occasional issues do happen with the more modern multi-pulse injector systems (how they got modern diesels so quiet). Gen 1 and 2 Cummins for example will burn right through any bio even with slight water with no issues at all.

Hope it helps,
Andre

 

[dieslcruisrhead]

Also, if it helps, the fuel itself has a warrantee from the manufacturer. If the truck or the seller has any issues, the manufacturer covers it. I have heard of one other instance of a Duramax that also had effects and it was 100% covered. The dealer charged ~$3500 or so. This is actually the first time I've heard of it in any Dodge, for what its worth. Usually it affects just your fuel filter with the junk from the tank getting caught in it. If you run any diesel with a clogged filter, even hesitating, it will harm or kill your lift pump. I doubt there was any other damage to the Dodge in question, even if the dealer charged $1200 unfortunately. Again lots of vehicles, literally thousands, use biodiesel regularly in SLC. I think if you are smart and change your fuel filter often enough you can run it fine in modern diesels. I know of a guy who runs 100% in all of his brand new Duramaxes for his construction business with no issues at all, one is already up to 60K with bio from day 1...

Here are related posts about Dodges from the old threads:
http://www.rockymountainextreme.com/showpost.php?p=350457&postcount=12
http://www.rockymountainextreme.com/showthread.php?t=35991&highlight=biodiesel

 

[Crinco]

From what I have heard, water is the biggest problem with Bio, and that is a much great problem in home brewed stuff, than the gas station type. I sounds to me like the Dodge mentioned about just got a tank full of contaminated fuel, or he topped off with gas instead of diesel. Both of those things happen, doesn't mean Bio is a bad choice. I have only run one tank, because there isnt any offered up here in Heber, but I would run it if it was.
CR

 

[kowe69]

At this point I am just an unbiased observer of this thread. Even as a diesel technician I really have no opinion about bio diesel either way. I just don't have enough experience with it as very little of my customers (that I know of) run bio diesel in there trucks. Those that I do know of, with trucks ranging in age, some have very little fuel related problems and some have one problem right after another with there fuel systems. I'm sure it all depends on their personal maintenance habits and also where they are buying it and how well it is refined. I due know that newer diesels, especially '07 and '08 that are designed for ULS fuel are very sensitive to fuel contamination.

Below is a special service message from Ford regarding there position on Bio-diesel fuel usage...

19635 1994-2008 - MULTIPLE VEHICLES - BIO-DIESEL FUEL USAGE
SOME F-SUPER DUTY, E-SERIES, EXCURSION, LCF, AND F-650/750 VEHICLES WITH A DIESEL ENGINE, MAY EXHIBIT ENGINE OR FUEL SYSTEM CONCERNS WHEN USING FUEL WITH GREATER THAN 5% BIO-DIESEL CONCENTRATION. IN CURRENTLY DESIGNED VEHICLES, ONLY FUELS CONTAINING NO MORE THAN 5% BIO-DIESEL (B5) MAY BE USED IN FORD DIESEL POWERED VEHICLES, AS PUBLISHED IN THE DIESEL SUPPLEMENT OWNER GUIDE. IF NOT PROPERLY FORMULATED, HIGHER LEVELS OF BIO-DIESEL ARE PRONE TO: DEGRADE MORE QUICKLY THAN DIESEL FUEL, ATTACK VARIOUS METALS, AND HAVE INCREASED WATER CONTENT; WHICH LEAD TO CORROSION, HIGHER ENGINE DEPOSITS, DAMAGED SEALS, AND DAMAGED COMPOSITE MATERIALS IN THE FUEL SYSTEM. IT IS ALSO MORE LIKELY TO GEL AT COLD TEMPS THAN CONVENTIONAL DIESEL FUELS.
EFFECTIVE DATE: 02/22/2007

 

[C22]

At this point I am just an unbiased observer of this thread. Even as a diesel technician I really have no opinion about bio diesel either way. I just don't have enough experience with it as very little of my customers (that I know of) run bio diesel in there trucks. Those that I do know of, with trucks ranging in age, some have very little fuel related problems and some have one problem right after another with there fuel systems. I'm sure it all depends on their personal maintenance habits and also where they are buying it and how well it is refined. I due know that newer diesels, especially '07 and '08 that are designed for ULS fuel are very sensitive to fuel contamination.

Below is a special service message from Ford regarding there position on Bio-diesel fuel usage...

19635 1994-2008 - MULTIPLE VEHICLES - BIO-DIESEL FUEL USAGE
SOME F-SUPER DUTY, E-SERIES, EXCURSION, LCF, AND F-650/750 VEHICLES WITH A DIESEL ENGINE, MAY EXHIBIT ENGINE OR FUEL SYSTEM CONCERNS WHEN USING FUEL WITH GREATER THAN 5% BIO-DIESEL CONCENTRATION. IN CURRENTLY DESIGNED VEHICLES, ONLY FUELS CONTAINING NO MORE THAN 5% BIO-DIESEL (B5) MAY BE USED IN FORD DIESEL POWERED VEHICLES, AS PUBLISHED IN THE DIESEL SUPPLEMENT OWNER GUIDE. IF NOT PROPERLY FORMULATED, HIGHER LEVELS OF BIO-DIESEL ARE PRONE TO: DEGRADE MORE QUICKLY THAN DIESEL FUEL, ATTACK VARIOUS METALS, AND HAVE INCREASED WATER CONTENT; WHICH LEAD TO CORROSION, HIGHER ENGINE DEPOSITS, DAMAGED SEALS, AND DAMAGED COMPOSITE MATERIALS IN THE FUEL SYSTEM. IT IS ALSO MORE LIKELY TO GEL AT COLD TEMPS THAN CONVENTIONAL DIESEL FUELS.
EFFECTIVE DATE: 02/22/2007

Thanks for the info, definitely some things to consider on retailing this product. At this point, our plan is to go forward with the biodiesel (still waiting on a new pump for our store), I really appreciate all the input on the subject.

Thanks.