Good ole fashioned argument time, I mean debate

[comingdown]

https://www.ksl.com/?sid=44108068&n...ly-laments-mothers-arrest-pending-deportation

What do you guys think about this?

 

[mbryson]

Tough call. She's here illegally. Kids are getting screwed by their mom that was here illegally. We've not done a good job enforcing immigration laws the past 40 years or so... Tough answer

 

[RogueJeepr]

Had plenty of time to do it legally. No excuses .

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[skiboarder]

Agreed. tough call. she came here at the age of seven. she didn't have much of choice then either. But I think the issue her is that they are going for the easy arrest. There are plenty of undocumented peoples here that have huge criminal records. they really should be working on those, not a mostly law abiding mom.

 

[comingdown]

I agree with basically everything that was said. A law is a law, I can't speed everyday then blame the cops for writing me a ticket and taking grocery money from my family. However, the prisons are over populated with scum bags and there's plenty of other people that could and should be deported before this lady was, but I just keep coming back to a law is s law and she was aware of her situation.

This is turning into the lamest argument I've ever been apart of. Lol

 

[ID Bronco]

I feel for the husband and kids, the parents had at least 10 years (oldest kid) as adults to get this straight. Without knowing how hard they tried it's tough to form an opinion, but the protesters who only use emotion as their basis for "justice" helps no one. They should be arguing facts, but that would likely lead to less sympathy for the Mother, so they ignore those pesky facts. In the article it says, "multiple groups who have said the potential deportation of the boy's mother, Silvia Avelar-Flores, is "immoral" and represents a federal effort to "terrorize" immigrant communities." Groups like this (usually liberal groups) try to take the moral high road by calling enforcing the law "immoral" instead of calling it enforcing the law. So if you are now "immoral" for agreeing with ICE you have no standing to argue. It's like them asking, "are you for hope and change?" of course everyone would be for good hope and change, but that isn't what they really mean. They likely really want amnesty and open borders if they really said how they feel, but that wouldn't give them the moral high ground to stand on so they won't say it. So you let this lady go, and the next one is tougher to hold, because the protests get louder and louder. ICE agents then become more immoral, and hated and then cannot do their job effectively.

It's a tough battle that will have to be tackled sometime. Ignoring it in the past has lead to this. Those who did nothing before (both political parties/presidents) are to blame, (really the person who came illegally is to blame) but the people who finally enforce existing law will be the scape goats.

 

[Spork]

Consistency is a big part of laws, if you never enforce a law and then suddenly do it people are going to be upset. If they deported her back in 1995 nobody would care. Waiting 24 years changes things and makes people think that laws are arbitrary and are not laws but political whims of whatever party happens to be in charge at the time. I'm waiting for the government to decide in 20 years that they have marijuana laws and start enforcing them again for some good rioting in the streets.

I don't believe the average person knows what is required to become a citizen. As such you hear stories about people that have been here 20 years and the government is kicking them out. You don't hear there are X number of steps to become a citizen and they didn't do step number 4 and now are getting deported. A quick google search pulls up https://www.uscis.gov/citizenship/learners/learn-about-naturalization

General Eligibility Requirements

Be at least 18 years old at the time you file Form N-400, Application for Naturalization.

Be a permanent resident (have a “Green Card”) for at least 5 years.

Demonstrate continuous residence in the United States for at least 5 years immediately before the date you file Form N-400.

Show that you have been physically present in the United States for at least 30 months out of the 5 years immediately before the date you file Form N-400.

Show that you have lived for at least 3 months in the state or USCIS district where you apply. Students may apply for naturalization either where they go to school or where their family lives (if they are still financially dependent on their parents).

Be a person of good moral character.

Demonstrate an attachment to the principles and ideals of the U.S. Constitution.

Be able to read, write, and speak basic English.

Have a basic understanding of U.S. history and government (civics).

Take an oath of allegiance to the United States.

 

[comingdown]

I feel for the husband and kids, the parents had at least 10 years (oldest kid) as adults to get this straight. Without knowing how hard they tried it's tough to form an opinion, but the protesters who only use emotion as their basis for "justice" helps no one. They should be arguing facts, but that would likely lead to less sympathy for the Mother, so they ignore those pesky facts. In the article it says, "multiple groups who have said the potential deportation of the boy's mother, Silvia Avelar-Flores, is "immoral" and represents a federal effort to "terrorize" immigrant communities." Groups like this (usually liberal groups) try to take the moral high road by calling enforcing the law "immoral" instead of calling it enforcing the law. So if you are now "immoral" for agreeing with ICE you have no standing to argue. It's like them asking, "are you for hope and change?" of course everyone would be for good hope and change, but that isn't what they really mean. They likely really want amnesty and open borders if they really said how they feel, but that wouldn't give them the moral high ground to stand on so they won't say it. So you let this lady go, and the next one is tougher to hold, because the protests get louder and louder. ICE agents then become more immoral, and hated and then cannot do their job effectively.

It's a tough battle that will have to be tackled sometime. Ignoring it in the past has lead to this. Those who did nothing before (both political parties/presidents) are to blame, (really the person who came illegally is to blame) but the people who finally enforce existing law will be the scape goats.

I agree. It's like letting your kids do whatever they want until they are 16 then try to enforce a curfew and house rules. It is the right thing to do, but probably a little late in the game so now your just a mean parent.

 

[Pike2350]

Personally I'm likely one of the few that think this is retarded. I get that it's a law, however, it's a waste of resources. As was said, she is law abidding (other then being brought here illegally) she is married to a citizen, etc. Personally I think this is more grand standing by ICE then anything else. It's another tally in the "we deported x illegals" box.

Personally immigration doesn't bother me. If we cut the welfare state and all that it wouldn't be near the problem it is. I do think going after people that have been here since they were kids (had no choice doing the illegal act) is just stupid, unless they have criminal history. I'm all for catching someone for larger misdemeanors and deporting them, but going after people that are doing nothing other then living in a place they have known most of their life is stupid.

To move into the more political debate.....not being a citizen should get no benefits from the state, no social security, no disability, etc.....however, as long as they are working and paying taxes and being normal, productive members of society WHO CARES really? There are probably a multiple MILLION actual citizens I'd rather see booted out of this country then people like this.

I've changed my view on the immigration issue over the past 10 years. I used to think any illegal alien was bad...but I've come to terms with the bigger problem...that's thw welfare state and much of our stupid laws that make them illegal. I kind of see this like the people that rode the closed BLM roads in Southern Utah. What they did was illegal, yet almost every off-roader felt they shouldn't be charged or arrested because "it shouldn't be illegal" When it's really a victimless crime, it should be looked over. Once there is a true victim, THEN let the punishment be quick, and severe....until then, let people live their lives.

 

[Hickey]

I agree that it's all relative to enforcement. Just like with the speed limit, people will push the limits of many laws until they are checked. Firm enforcement of the law is very important to its success.

 

[Kevin B.]

I'm kinda with Pike. There's just bigger fish to fry.

Situations like this are why I favor amnesty. If we'd fix our immigration system so that they wouldn't have to break the law in order to live and work in freedom instead of that failed state they're trying to escape, then we could grant amnesty to the ones that don't have a criminal history and then go after the ones we really don't want here. Hard. But it's all meaningless while our border is insecure and immigration ques are years long.

 

[ID Bronco]

Personally I'm likely one of the few that think this is retarded. I get that it's a law, however, it's a waste of resources. As was said, she is law abidding (other then being brought here illegally) she is married to a citizen, etc. Personally I think this is more grand standing by ICE then anything else. It's another tally in the "we deported x illegals" box.

Personally immigration doesn't bother me. If we cut the welfare state and all that it wouldn't be near the problem it is. I do think going after people that have been here since they were kids (had no choice doing the illegal act) is just stupid, unless they have criminal history. I'm all for catching someone for larger misdemeanors and deporting them, but going after people that are doing nothing other then living in a place they have known most of their life is stupid.

To move into the more political debate.....not being a citizen should get no benefits from the state, no social security, no disability, etc.....however, as long as they are working and paying taxes and being normal, productive members of society WHO CARES really? There are probably a multiple MILLION actual citizens I'd rather see booted out of this country then people like this.

I've changed my view on the immigration issue over the past 10 years. I used to think any illegal alien was bad...but I've come to terms with the bigger problem...that's thw welfare state and much of our stupid laws that make them illegal. I kind of see this like the people that rode the closed BLM roads in Southern Utah. What they did was illegal, yet almost every off-roader felt they shouldn't be charged or arrested because "it shouldn't be illegal" When it's really a victimless crime, it should be looked over. Once there is a true victim, THEN let the punishment be quick, and severe....until then, let people live their lives.

So would you take that to the end result with no North American borders at all? That's where it leads to the Liberals. I have a sister in law that is nearly done with the citizenship process, it's reasonable and like it or not borders do and should matter. Europe is seeing the results (mostly negative) of mass immigration. I still know and believe we are the most generous country out there, (try to sneak into Mexico and stay, see where you end up) and fear should be part of the motivation for obeying a law. I don't speed all the time because I don't want to pay tickets and have insurance rates go up. That is fear/consequence driven. When her parents were deported she could have left then and knew it was a possibility for her later.

 

[ID Bronco]

I'm kinda with Pike. There's just bigger fish to fry.

Situations like this are why I favor amnesty. If we'd fix our immigration system so that they wouldn't have to break the law in order to live and work in freedom instead of that failed state they're trying to escape, then we could grant amnesty to the ones that don't have a criminal history and then go after the ones we really don't want here. Hard. But it's all meaningless while our border is insecure and immigration ques are years long.

Reagan gave them that in the 80's, it didn't work or stop the influx

 

[Kevin B.]

Reagan gave them that in the 80's, it didn't work or stop the influx

Because we didn't fix anything. As long as they can't come here legally, and they're able to come here illegally, they're going to. The situation where they're at is bad enough that they're willing to risk getting caught to be here instead.

I think if we fixed our immigration to make it easier to immigrate legally, and fixed our borders to make it harder to get here illegally, then amnesty would be worth talking about. I agree it's useless to discuss it while things sit as they are.

 

[Pike2350]

So would you take that to the end result with no North American borders at all? That's where it leads to the Liberals. I have a sister in law that is nearly done with the citizenship process, it's reasonable and like it or not borders do and should matter. Europe is seeing the results (mostly negative) of mass immigration. I still know and believe we are the most generous country out there, (try to sneak into Mexico and stay, see where you end up) and fear should be part of the motivation for obeying a law. I don't speed all the time because I don't want to pay tickets and have insurance rates go up. That is fear/consequence driven. When her parents were deported she could have left then and knew it was a possibility for her later.

No, I wouldn't take it to that end result. I see no problem with having borders and enforcing the law with discretion. I personally feel if you got rid of SO MUCH of the welfare state, and made immigration a much easier process, then we would get rid of so much. I look at it more in the way of illegals are "renting" their position here. As long as they pay taxes through income, SSi, etc....AND get no benefits of those, they can stay and work on becoming citizens. After they become citizens, THEN they can become eligible to get those benefits, but only from the time of citizenship. However, those that are here illegally AND involved in any form of criminal activity should be deported.....they obviously aren't here contributing to our society...but then again, neither are millions of citizens that just happened to be born "inside the lines"

While I agree that fear of the law should be there...BUT, again, this is someone that has been here since they were 10. She couldnt' help to being brought here illegally...sure, as you said, she could've left when her parents were deported...but she doesn't know the place, and would have to restart a life when really, she had no say in how she committed the illegal act. I do think that those that are here illegally should have a simplier road to becoming citizens as long as there is no criminal history....and they were brought here as kids.

The process is messed up all around...but the biggest problem is that we provide WAY too much for people with no contribution.....eliminate the "freebies" first, then deal with the rest.

 

[ID Bronco]

No, I wouldn't take it to that end result. I see no problem with having borders and enforcing the law with discretion. I personally feel if you got rid of SO MUCH of the welfare state, and made immigration a much easier process, then we would get rid of so much. I look at it more in the way of illegals are "renting" their position here. As long as they pay taxes through income, SSi, etc....AND get no benefits of those, they can stay and work on becoming citizens. After they become citizens, THEN they can become eligible to get those benefits, but only from the time of citizenship. However, those that are here illegally AND involved in any form of criminal activity should be deported.....they obviously aren't here contributing to our society...but then again, neither are millions of citizens that just happened to be born "inside the lines"

While I agree that fear of the law should be there...BUT, again, this is someone that has been here since they were 10. She couldnt' help to being brought here illegally...sure, as you said, she could've left when her parents were deported...but she doesn't know the place, and would have to restart a life when really, she had no say in how she committed the illegal act. I do think that those that are here illegally should have a simplier road to becoming citizens as long as there is no criminal history....and they were brought here as kids.

The process is messed up all around...but the biggest problem is that we provide WAY too much for people with no contribution.....eliminate the "freebies" first, then deal with the rest.

I agree, we need to stop the entitlements. Border crossings are way down with just the threat of deportations. That is a good thing.

 

[comingdown]

I agree also. The vast majority of people have a lot of pride in their heritage and would much rather live and stay in Mexico, but they will never have the opportunities they can have here in their home country. I think we need to first stop the flow of illegal immigration with a secure wall. We need to shut down the benefits programs, doing that also e would cause a mass self deportation because there would no longer be any point in living here. And we need to sit down and make a decent pathway to citizenship for people to become citizens, but in all reality, Mexico needs to get their crap together. Revolt like our forefathers did. They don't have to live the way they do. Over throw the government and get rid of all the corruption. Mexico is a beautiful place with a fantastic culture and plenty of rich natural resources. They just need to start running their country to its fullest.

 

[RogueJeepr]

Yes. Mexico does need to stand on its own feet. So maybe the wall/immigration enforcement could be a good thing for them (long term).

This scenario is like watching (cop's)T.V. .
A guy gets arrested cause he has a warrant and claims to know nothing about it but..... If he just went to court and followed through with that. He wouldn't be in jail.
Sucks she's a law abiding mom with kids.

Probably dont hear about the criminals getting ICE'd cause nobody cares or makes a fuss.

I do think some come here to live on welfare, which should not happen at all.


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[glockman]

The wall is a bad idea. It will be built by the government or government contractors. How much do you think that will cost and how much do you think we (tax payers) will get screwed so some new Haliburton can charge exorbitant amounts of money to produce a subpar structure. Let alone how much it will cost to staff and maintain. The other issue is they will just dig tunnels and create other means to get in. Eliminating what lures them here in the first place is the answer.

On the other side, how can you be mad at a person from Mexico who lives in shit and wants a better life here? If the rolls were reversed, you're damn right I would sneak across a border to work and provide a better life for my family. Who wouldn't. So we need to stop the welfare, stop the ease with which they can work under the table and eliminate the power of the drug cartels back in Mexico. The cartels are a major reason Mexico is so screwed up.

How do we remove power from the cartels? By ending the blatantly failed, Freedom crushing, unconstitutional drug war. Ending the drug war not only stops the flow of immigrants escaping terrible conditions in Mexico, it stops the flow of billions of dollars leaving the US, it releases millions of non violent criminals, it creates industry here in the US and it eliminates a large portion of the police state we live in. Not only that but the nefarious immigrants who come here to make money in the black market instead of legitimate industries would also be greatly reduced. One thing it doesn't do is turn all Americans into drug addicts!

This lady is not the issue. Deporting her will not help anything. Letting her stay will not help anything. The emotional reasoning that is happening here is also the root cause of the drug war that is largely the reason they are coming here to begin with.

 

[mbryson]

How do we end the "war on drugs"?