King of The Bummers! Who's In?

[UNSTUCK]

For a long time now I've wanted to do a junker desert race. I was talking to my wife the other day about it and she said, "well do it". I have lots of ideas on how I want to do it, but first I thought I would send out a feeler to see if there is interest. I'm thinking it would take 5-10 race teams to make it worthwhile. It will be VERY simple. More of a bunch of friends out playing on a Saturday than any kind of formal race event. That means there won't be any sponsors, insurance, ect. You will take full liability for yourself and others you may harm, just like if we were to go out and do a normal trail run activity. This one will just be as fast as we can go, with junk 4x4's that will most likely get hauled off to the junkyard once we're done. Keep in mind we will still leave the trails like we found them, no scattered parts/fluids left behind.

So, similar to the Gambler 500 that was posted about a few days ago, each team will have to bring a race car valued/purchased at or below $500. From there, you can mod as you please, with some safety requirements as well. I'm thinking 4 man teams would be best, doing two (or more) laps on a designated course. Driver and co-driver will change each lap, and they can then switch off between being driver and co-driver as they please. The two men that are not racing will make up the chase team, as needed. I think at one point it would be cool to have a "challenge checkpoint" where the chase team will have to bring out an item to the race car to simulate a "repair". The chase car can be any rig they want to use for that purpose.

It will be set up pretty similar as other races with a staggered start, maybe two at a time. The course will be made up of X amount of checkpoints. The co-driver will have to take a timestamped picture of the race car at the checkpoint before they can move on. There could be obstacles that if completed would take time off your clock. Or maybe time added if you don't complete the obstacle. I think the course should be pretty short. Maybe 5-10 miles per lap, including rock crawling and desert racing. 5-mile pass or the west desert area is probably a good location.

I'd like to do this on a Saturday in May, but open to doing it whenever. I think it will be harder to do it later on though. We could even do it in April. After the race we would have a big BBQ or something. I'm sure there will be a few stories to tell.

I think it would be cool to do a $100 per team buy in where the winner takes all.

So who wants to play? Can you put a team together?

 

[Kevin B.]

I'm really liking the idea of longer distance rallies, but I'm in for this too. We should get a whole series of rallies going.

 

[mbryson]

The issue is land use. I'm not 100% certain on the details but it's why King of the Whiskey gets kept on the downlow because it's not exactly legal or smart for land use to do it without permits. And permits require insurance I believe.

Again I don't remember the details but I think it's any gathering of 25(?) or more people is considered an event and needs the proper permits and insurance.

If if you can keep it under the limit, I think it qualifies as not an event and just "racing with friends"

I'm sure many on here will frown upon it because disregarding those land use rules is how we get land closed down :/

-That being said, I'd love to do something like this, if we could follow land use rules.

You bring up valid points. Unfortunately ALL activities with vehicles are lumped into our user group. We are all the same group. Press of any kind will be lumped against EVERYONE with a 4x4 vehicle not just those involved.

Best thing to do would be to do it on private land and tell everyone to pound sand

 

[UNSTUCK]

So any time any 4x4 club goes on a monthly trail run, and they get a large turnout, they need to have permits and insurance? Does RME do this for its clean-ups at 5MP and AFC, or any other run it sponsors? Does it make a difference that no entity is putting this on, just a bunch of friends getting together?

 

[SSR]

I'm doubtful I would participate, but this sounds like an absolute riot! Things to consider in addition to land use, 5 mile recreation area is going to be VERY busy every Saturday that the sun shines. Further south-west, the desert hosts multiple desert races through the spring, one about every two weeks. I believe most of these races are around the sand dunes and cherry creek areas, but they cover huge tracks of land during these events. USRA Racing is the sanctioning body, they should list all the races on thier website. My advice is avoid these areas and weekends, they are typically well supported by county and blm law enforcement.

 

[mbryson]

So any time any 4x4 club goes on a monthly trail run, and they get a large turnout, they need to have permits and insurance? Does RME do this for its clean-ups at 5MP and AFC, or any other run it sponsors? Does it make a difference that no entity is putting this on, just a bunch of friends getting together?

Going by the BLM regs, likely yes, you do need a permit etc for those types of events

 

[cruiseroutfit]

So any time any 4x4 club goes on a monthly trail run, and they get a large turnout, they need to have permits and insurance? Does RME do this for its clean-ups at 5MP and AFC, or any other run it sponsors? Does it make a difference that no entity is putting this on, just a bunch of friends getting together?

Sadly yes... they may need a permit, volunteer agreement or memorandum of understanding. Whereas they are generally (and should only be) traveling on established routes, are not charging any admittance fee and not asking for nor requiring exclusive Trail access... no permit is needed, general accepted usage. Cleanups are generally done with the BLM/FS (for example ExpeditionUtah meets monthly with the FS re: our AFC Trail adoption) so not only is a permit not required, those groups often get the opportunity to host additional meets using that relationship. I do several permitted events each year, one being the Cruise Moab Event. As the host club charges for the event we have to file for permits.

But if you are charging, or competing, or racing, or closing/restricting public trail access, or planning to operate in or near special use land status area. You would be required to have a permit on BLM land. Each district had variants of the rules and FS land is totally different but with their mission generally never allows and type of racing or competitive events anyways.

To further muddy the waters, many private property parcels exist in the 5MP Rec Area, a permit would require you make contact and get written permission from all those land owners too. Right-of-ways protect the public user but again anytime you charge, race, etc you are no longer a public entity but a commercial entity subject to Special Recreation Permits. Oh, and the BLM needs 180 days to process a permit application and can ask you to pay for the research and impact studies aka cost recovery if desired.

 

[BlueWolfFab]

If you could find someone out west with enough private land and would allow us to do this, I'd gladly donate my equipment time and create a "track".

 

[Houndoc]

Sounds like a blast and would be interested in joining a team.

But agree with others that should be done on private land or with permit.

 

[Kevin B.]

If we're talking about private land, I'll just leave this thread here...

http://www.expeditionutah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5021

 

[UNSTUCK]

I didn't spend a ton of time searching, but I didn't really find any specifics that say this would require a permit from BLM, other than the "entry fee" of $100. I wouldn't even call it that. It's just we would all be chipping in to award the winner. To me, what I'm proposing is no different than any other trail run that pops on this board. No one should read into this any more than that. If we can't do this run we shouldn't be able to do any runs, with out permits like Kurt has done.

Supposing we had full support of BLM, how many of us would actually commit to putting a team together, buy a junker, and show up to play? This is all that matters. If you think it would be really cool, but have no interest in participating, maybe this is a better forum for you:

http://www.knittingparadise.com/

(I'm not sure, but I think that may be Carl on the front page!)

 

[BlueWolfFab]

With BLM approval, I'm totally in as long as it's safe to public (people that are out recreating in the area we want to be in)

I think it would help the BLM approval if "no money was involved" and also sticking to existing roads and no trail modification. The area would literally need to look the same before and after we were there.

 

[Kevin B.]

With BLM approval, I'm totally in as long as it's safe to public (people that are out recreating in the area we want to be in)

I think it would help the BLM approval if "no money was involved" and also sticking to existing roads and no trail modification. The area would literally need to look the same before and after we were there.

^ It would need to do that anyway.

I think that what's being proposed here is public enough that I'd feel more comfortable participating with BLM approval - either getting permits, or being told that what we're doing doesn't need permits. If something else were to happen a little more discretely, I'd want to have a hard look at what exactly we're doing and whether we're bending/breaking any rules. Either way, if I'm happy we're not breaking laws or being poor stewards, I'm definitely in with a $500 junker.

 

[SSR]

What kind of vehicles are people thinking? Is it $500 purchase price with an additional cap on total build?

 

[BlueWolfFab]

I'd vote no cap on post-purchase spending, but only because it's going to be difficult to get people to prove what they did or didn't spend post purchase. I'd bet you'd get a lot of "I already had it sitting around on my shelves so I just used it"

 

[Deleted member 12904]

I've help organize Bonneville off-road racing races in the past. I can pretty much guarantee you they won't approve a race at 5 mile. Your best bet is Knolls. By Kurt said you need about 6+ months of advance notice to start working on the permit. You'll need a written safety plan. Road and trail repair plan. They typically require you to bring in your own bathroom facilities but that may not be an issue at Knolls with existing facilities. Also you'll need to have an ambulance on site during the entire race. And then obviously the event Insurance. Entry fees have zero impact on this these are minimum requirements your final permit be will depend on how much money the event makes so if it makes nothing you'll have the minimum permit fee.

I tried to get permits for a race at Delle once it was something like a minimum of 60 hours of land impact study at like $80 an hour and they wouldn't put a cap on it so you really don't know what your end Bill would be

Personally I'm not totally against participating in a non-"legal "race. But I can promise you you won't get 10 miles of race course properly marked at a place like 5 mile without somebody taking notice. Also something to think of BOR is pretty grassroots Racing so many of the people we have budget race vehicles. That said they're not $500 beaters and you typically will see less than a 50% finished rate. So for me to be interested in something like this I would want to see it less traditional desert race style and more rally cross.

 

[BlueWolfFab]

'Bout time you pipe up

 

[cruiseroutfit]

I didn't spend a ton of time searching, but I didn't really find any specifics that say this would require a permit from BLM, other than the "entry fee" of $100.

You can certainly be creative about the entry fee and many 4x4 clubs do, i.e. U4 used to charge for breakfast and not the trail ride, that cleared up the permit dilemma BUT they were not racing, restricting trail access. The BLM rules (published on the BLM's SL Field Office website) are VERY clear imo:



Give them a call, maybe they will tell you otherwise but I can promise you any time the word "race, contest, rally or competition" is mentioned, they are going to default to a permit with insurance. BOR (Utah desert race organization) has been working with the BLM for 5+ years to get a desert race back in Utah, Delle, Knolls, etc. In the meantime they run in Nevada as permit restrictions are different out of those BLM districts (they do get full permits) and they deal with more races so they are more prepped to process them, just like Moab is so easy to host a 4x4 event as EJS has the BLM pro's at the permit and EIS process (thanks RR4W!). BOR does a race in Utah on County land in Vernal, it would be a GREAT place to host a race and Counties have completely different permit and insurance standards, hence why places like Price, Delta, etc have rock-crawl parks.

If we can't do this run we shouldn't be able to do any runs, with out permits like Kurt has done.

LOL, dress it up however you want but a race is a race, a trail ride is a trail ride. We don't restrict access, we don't change the intended and typical use of the routes and we don't introduce any danger above and beyond typical use of the route. It is assinine to think you can have a speed based event on public routes and not take on some liability and inherent risk. I desert race dude, I'm 100% aware of that risk and the race groups we participate in (BITD, SCORE, BOR, etc) spend years working out permits, trail closures, checkpoint and road crossing officials, etc just to make it safe. You run into a Sxs in your Jeep at 5MP while on a trail ride, insurance is going to pick up the bill. You run into a SxS while competing in a race, your insurance is going to laugh at you. It's just that simple. Look, I don't make the rules, but comparing a competitive race to a trail ride and saying our groups shouldn't be able to continue to do so is misleading at best. We work WITH the BLM @ 5MP, AFC, etc. We do get permits and MOU for Cruise Moab, CruiserFest, etc. Apple and oranges.

Supposing we had full support of BLM, how many of us would actually commit to putting a team together, buy a junker, and show up to play? This is all that matters. If you think it would be really cool, but have no interest in participating, maybe this is a better forum for you

I'd be 100% committed.

 

[Kevin B.]

I'd vote no cap on post-purchase spending, but only because it's going to be difficult to get people to prove what they did or didn't spend post purchase. I'd bet you'd get a lot of "I already had it sitting around on my shelves so I just used it"

I think there needs to be something. If guys are taking their $500 rustbucket and then dropping thousands and thousands of dollars into race mods, what was the point of starting with a junker?

The Hornet class racers down at RMR have a rule that the guy who comes in last each race gets to trade cars with whoever he wants. I could see something like that working well here.