large SUV- which is best?

Badcop

Who Dat? Who Der?
Location
Hyrum UT
I will have to say I love towing 6500lbs of Jeep on the back of my 00' Expedition. I have the 5.4 but also have a MagnaCharger in it. Factory 4.10 gearing, locker in the rear and a 4" procomp. If you look hard enough you can find what I found in a Eddie Bauer, it has the rear end of a F250 in the D70 but the benefit of disc brakes, 4 link, and air bag asist.

Towing is a dream, even with the XJ and trailer loaded down on the back I pull 16-18mpg on the freeway and with or without hills have enough power to set the cruise at 75-80.

As for kids, they love it, so does the dog, put a few movies in for them and there good for 12hours. There rear bench is a nice place for the dog to chill, and the kids have bucket captain seats that recline for nappy time.

I have also towed a 30' travel trailer with it without a problem.

My dad has a 99' PSD thats been a headache since day one, trannie after trannie. Other than that its been a good truck.
 

Houndoc

Registered User
Location
Grantsville
Lots of good input- thanks one and all.

Here is what I am seeing:

Suburban: overall very good family and tow rig.

Excursion: mixed track record on towing.

Expidition: Good towing, not as much room.

Dodge: needs to get on board and make a bigger rig (agreed, liked my 98 Durango but more room is needed).

Others: Sequia (I love the way they drive) and Armada (haven't looked at them yet).

Thanks for the input. :)
 

thenag

Registered User
Location
Kearns
Badcop said:
I will have to say I love towing 6500lbs of Jeep on the back of my 00' Expedition. I have the 5.4 but also have a MagnaCharger in it. Factory 4.10 gearing, locker in the rear and a 4" procomp. If you look hard enough you can find what I found in a Eddie Bauer, it has the rear end of a F250 in the D70 but the benefit of disc brakes, 4 link, and air bag asist.

actually it is not quite the same rear end that is in the super duties. and ford only used (uses?) the Dana 70 in vans (yeah tell me about it?!) I belive it is a semi floater sterling 10.5. all the superduties I have seen have the full floater. I belive it is the same differential and takes the same gears/lockers but it is not the same rear end. GM makes a semi float version of the 14 bolt that they put on suburbans etc...

nathan
-no cool sig
 

ROCKRUNNER

Active Member
Location
SLC
I currently have a 03 Expedition that I have towed several times in the 6-7k lb range it has the highest limit of 9100k lbs of all the suvs. The 5.4 is a good strong engine however what really makes that thing tow and especially up canyons is the tranny. I have out pulled many of my friends diesels up american fork canyon not because of power but because the way the tranny is setup. It is always in its power band with the electronic control towing feature. It also has a limited slip rear with traction control. I have towed a 02 yukon, 01 durango, 03 grand cherokee, and by far the Expedition ruled them all. The Yukons response was very sluggish.
 

metalry101

R/C addict
Location
Sandy, UT
ROCKRUNNER said:
... the highest limit of 9100k lbs of all the suvs. .
No.

The Armada will tow just as much, and has a helluva lot more power.

A 3/4 ton 'Burb/Yukon XL will tow 12,000.

An Excursion will tow 11,000.

Personally, I've ridden in a few Suburbans while towing, and I have to agree with the comments about stability and power. I've ridden in 496 powered 'Burbs and the older 454 powered models. They were quiet, exceptionally roomy and comfortable, and rock solid. Mileage sucked while towing and wasn't a lot better when empty, but damn they pulled well. 75+ mph up 10% grades with a 7,000 lb trailer is pretty damned impressive in my book. I've also ridden in a 6.0 'Burb. It did well, but it was pulling a lot of revs on the inclines. If you don't tow very often though, it's probably a lot better choice since fuel is only going to get more expensive.

Armadas are sweet, but I've heard of problems with the Titan rattling apart due to the uneducated rednecks who build them not tightening bolts to specs. I would imagine the Armada would probably have some of the same problems, but then again, if you're comparing it to other American cars, it's probably not a big deal.

I can't stand either generation of Durango, or the Hemi. I've ridden in a Hemi pickup, and it had a lot of power, but it's all top end. I forsee a lot of Hemi's and accompanying trannies worn out after 100,000 miles if they're subjected to a lot of towing since the engine has to pull 4,000+ revs to make any power. It's a smooth, powerful engine, but at those kind of revs, your fuel economy is gonna go to ****, and I think in the long run, it's going to wear the engine out sooner.

I don't care for Ford's SUV's in general, as none of them have any off-roading in mind at all (Independent all the way around on new Expeditions, and Excursions are too big for the highway almost, much less a trail). I've heard a lot of good things about the Expedition, and I would imagine it'd be very, very quiet and comfortable inside, and it's probably the safest of all the rigs mentioned, but with a vehicle this size, safety is usually down on the list, as the safety comes with the sheer mass of the vehicle. I've heard multiple accounts of Excursions being absolutely terrifying tow vehicles. I've heard they're comfortable and get good mileage, and of course they're huge inside, but I dunno...I've never liked them, at all. As for the engines, I've heard good things about Ford's V10, and great things about the 7.3 Powerstroke. However, if you plan on modifying the engine, I've heard the 6.0 has a tendancy to blow up when pushed, whereas the 7.3 is rock solid.

The Sequoia is above all else, a 'Yota, which means it'll drive like a car, last forever, and hold its value. The V8 is small, and the specs aren't impressive, but the Tundra has almost identical 0-60 and 1/4 mile times as the "300 horse" '04 F-150, so obviously it does pretty well. I've heard nothing but good things from every Tundra and Sequoia owner I've talked to, but if you plan on towing 6,000+ lbs frequently, it'd probably be hard on it. It can handle it, but I would think it'd be like a 6.0 'Burb or a Hemi Durango, lotza revs on the inclines, which is hard on engines, trannies, and fuel (all of which are very hard on your wallet). If you don't tow that much, the Sequoia would probably be the best balance of family/gear hauler, daily driver duties, and weekened workhorse. If you tow a lot, you'd probably be better off with something designed to be a towed with a lot, like an 8.1 'Burb or an Armada.

Personally, for tons of towing, I'd buy the 8.1 'Burb or Armada. For occassional towing, or light duty (under 5,000 lbs) towing, I'd buy the Sequoia.
 

mbryson

.......a few dollars more
Supporting Member
metalry101 said:
....................I've heard multiple accounts of Excursions being absolutely terrifying tow vehicles. I've heard they're comfortable and get good mileage, and of course they're huge inside, but I dunno...I've never liked them, at all. ...................


I'm curious about the "terrifying tow vehicle" comment. I've read/asked/driven a LOT about the 7.3L PSD Excursion and have NEVER heard those types of comments except for in this thread. There are some suggested upgrades for the Excursion for heavy towing (F350 springs and a rear swaybar, basicly), but to tow 7000 lbs (which I'm sure the vehicle trailer combo would be under) it will handle the load as well as any other comparable vehicles (and would seem to be upgradeable quite cheaply/easily to 'king SUV tow rig' status with the suspension upgrades and the diesel engine). The other poster suggested that the Excursion would 'jump' lanes with a boat trailer on (probably 1500 lbs tops?)............what's your experience/knowledge before I go dropping $$$$$ on a used F*rd (still scared of the automatic trans in MOST tow rigs)?



(frankly, I'd rather have a NEW '91 Sub with an HO Cummins, 6 speed manual and bitchin' A/C than anything on the market---but I don't think I want to put that much time/money into a SUV tow rig when I want a crew cab pickup anyway--SUV is the wife's influence)
 

metalry101

R/C addict
Location
Sandy, UT
mbryson said:
I'm curious about the "terrifying tow vehicle" comment. I've read/asked/driven a LOT about the 7.3L PSD Excursion and have NEVER heard those types of comments except for in this thread. There are some suggested upgrades for the Excursion for heavy towing (F350 springs and a rear swaybar, basicly), but to tow 7000 lbs (which I'm sure the vehicle trailer combo would be under) it will handle the load as well as any other comparable vehicles (and would seem to be upgradeable quite cheaply/easily to 'king SUV tow rig' status with the suspension upgrades and the diesel engine). The other poster suggested that the Excursion would 'jump' lanes with a boat trailer on (probably 1500 lbs tops?)............what's your experience/knowledge before I go dropping $$$$$ on a used F*rd (still scared of the automatic trans in MOST tow rigs)?
It sounds like other people have experienced the same thing that the people I've talked to have, and have found a fix. I've heard that the body moves around on top of the axles with a heavy load attached, especially going down a grade. One particularly guy I talked to thought he was going to wreck the Excursion he test drove with his 7,000 lb 24 foot Sea Ray in tow because it got so out of control coming down Parley's. He said he loved the engine and tranny, and that if it hadn't been for that experience, he probably would have bought the Excursion instead of the 8.1 'Burb. I'm going to assume that other people have had similiar experiences if they're swapping heavier duty springs and swaybars on, as those would be the two things to put on (other than a beefier track bar (if there is one stock, if not, any track bar would be an improvement) to fix the problem of the body rolling about on top of the axles.

I think your best bet is to find a dealership that's wiling to let you do a test tow of your trailer up and down Parley's or something like that, so that you can feel exactly how the rig tows up and down gnarly grades. If the dealership or person won't let you do that, even with them in the car, then I'd move on. If you're serious about buying their vehicle, I would think they'd let you do a 50 mile tow test. It might take a little talking, but if other people have done it before, then the precedent has been set, and that's definately on your side.
 

mbryson

.......a few dollars more
Supporting Member
metalry101 said:
It sounds like other people have experienced the same thing that the people I've talked to have, and have found a fix. I've heard that the body moves around on top of the axles with a heavy load attached, especially going down a grade. One particularly guy I talked to thought he was going to wreck the Excursion he test drove with his 7,000 lb 24 foot Sea Ray in tow because it got so out of control coming down Parley's. He said he loved the engine and tranny, and that if it hadn't been for that experience, he probably would have bought the Excursion instead of the 8.1 'Burb. I'm going to assume that other people have had similiar experiences if they're swapping heavier duty springs and swaybars on, as those would be the two things to put on (other than a beefier track bar (if there is one stock, if not, any track bar would be an improvement) to fix the problem of the body rolling about on top of the axles.


Maverick?????? (he just bought a 7.3L PSD Excursion and swapped out to the F350 springs) any comments?

Lessee.....(checking 24' Sea Ray weight).......google.com......http://www.searay.com/online_brochure.asp?tab=1&modelid=44634&reqtype=1,9,15,19,5 dry weight of 4500 lbs, add #600-900 lbs for your gear, maybe #200 for a half a tank of fuel, and say #1500 for the trailer === Cache Valley math == computing = 7100 lb load (pretty conservative estimate, IMHO) and probably starting to push the 7000 lb Excursion around a little. I'd want trailer brakes and an EQ hitch above the curb weight of the vehicle. There's only two SUV I'd even consider towing that with (one has a Chev/GMC badge and the other is an Excursion) kind of weight (which probably isn't too far off from Houndoc's original intent of a 22' boat at the first of this thread---Sea Ray Dry weight of 4370 lbs). That's a pretty decent load for a bumper pull anything and you'd want to be slightly conservative about speed whichever vehicle you were towing with, esp. on the downhills.


http://www.fordvehicles.com/suvs/excursion/features/specs/
Looks like the 5.4L will MAX out at 7600 lbs, the V10 and PSD can do up to 11,000 with a GCWR of 20K. I'm willing to bet the suspension doesn't change from the 5.4L version because of 'ride quality' issues with the soccer moms.


http://www.gmc.com/yukon/index.jsp
http://www.gmc.com/specs/specs_content_files/specs_towing.jsp?brand=yukon&vehicle=xl
Same thing with the 6.0L vs. the 8.1L..... {and they look to be coil sprung in the rear?} ...... Honestly, that's kinda freaky. Personally, I'd prefer to buy GM, but against my better judgement after test driving 12-15 Subs/Yukon XL, I really don't like the 'feel' of the IFS without a load and know I would HATE it with the load. Just my personal opinion and data gathered from the seat of my pants while on a test drive(s).


metalry101 said:
I think your best bet is to find a dealership that's wiling to let you do a test tow of your trailer up and down Parley's or something like that, so that you can feel exactly how the rig tows up and down gnarly grades. If the dealership or person won't let you do that, even with them in the car, then I'd move on. If you're serious about buying their vehicle, I would think they'd let you do a 50 mile tow test. It might take a little talking, but if other people have done it before, then the precedent has been set, and that's definately on your side.


I've got that arranged. Not worried about the 2 dealerships I would work with (or any private party for that matter)......;)

My dollar still goes to the 3/4 ton full size stuff. I've had my fill of towing with a 1/2 ton chassis.
 

metalry101

R/C addict
Location
Sandy, UT
mbryson said:
Lessee.....(checking 24' Sea Ray weight).......google.com......http://www.searay.com/online_brochure.asp?tab=1&modelid=44634&reqtype=1,9,15,19,5 dry weight of 4500 lbs, add #600-900 lbs for your gear, maybe #200 for a half a tank of fuel, and say #1500 for the trailer === Cache Valley math == computing = 7100 lb load (pretty conservative estimate, IMHO) and probably starting to push the 7000 lb Excursion around a little. I'd want trailer brakes and an EQ hitch above the curb weight of the vehicle. There's only two SUV I'd even consider towing that with (one has a Chev/GMC badge and the other is an Excursion) kind of weight (which probably isn't too far off from Houndoc's original intent of a 22' boat at the first of this thread---Sea Ray Dry weight of 4370 lbs). That's a pretty decent load for a bumper pull anything and you'd want to be slightly conservative about speed whichever vehicle you were towing with, esp. on the downhills.

http://www.gmc.com/yukon/index.jsp
http://www.gmc.com/specs/specs_content_files/specs_towing.jsp?brand=yukon&vehicle=xl
Same thing with the 6.0L vs. the 8.1L..... {and they look to be coil sprung in the rear?} ...... Honestly, that's kinda freaky.
His boat did have trailer brakes, and I'm 98% sure he would have used them, and a proper reciever mounted hitch to test pull his boat, as he's not dumb enough to tow that much on a bumper mounted ball, let alone without trailer brakes. I could be wrong, but I think he had a trailer brake controller that was easily switched from one vehicle to another, and on a vehicle like that, that's designed to tow, it would have been easy to plug in I'd think. I could be wrong on that...but I think he used trailer brakes when he tested, since that's how he towed after he bought it.

As for the 'Burb being coiled and multi-linked in the rear, you're partially right. 1/2 tons do have that setup, but the 3/4 tons run proper leaf springs for exactly the reasons you're scared of coils, more stability and better load handling, and less concern about a soccer mom's ass being happy with the ride.
 
Johnny come lately to this conv, but this has been the subject of extensive scrutiny by me over the last 18 months. You can read my rants at thedieselstop.com (tds).

In short, a stock X (eXcursion) is a wallowing turd that should not be allowed on roads of any type. We can get into the why of it later. The descriptions that I read above are dead on accurate. You can find similar experiences from X owners at tds. I've driven a LOT of X's and burbs, and towed with both.

A burb drives like a #*$#@ sports car compared to an X. A "burb" means a 3/4ton burb. 1/2 burbs do not exist on my planet.

You can take a burb and hook on the max rated trailer and it will HANDLE the trailer. It needs a Dmax to properly TOW the trailer, but don't get me started.

An X, once CORRECTED, rocks the house. Bruce1954 at tds has defined the proper correction recipe, which consists of new shocks, F350 U or V code front springs, Hellwig rear antisway bar and rear airbags or F350 B code rear springs. Optional and adviseable are the LANDYOT radius rods to keep the rear axle headed the same direction as the rest of the vehicle.

I have the V codes, Hellwig and airbags on mine. I also did the airbag reservoir, which flattens the springrate of the bags and makes the ride comfortable at any given level of airbag assist. It doesn't ride as soft as a 3/4 burb, but it handles itself now, and handles itself well. Driving and towing is great. I'm very picky about these things, and I'm very impressed with this vehicle. It's also much bigger inside than my '99 burb and we've grown used to it.

My prodigy and/or trailer connection suck though...but that's for another thread.

Brett

(I have a set of extra U codes, and so does Von)
 
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metalry101 said:
No.

The Armada will tow just as much, and has a helluva lot more power.

A 3/4 ton 'Burb/Yukon XL will tow 12,000.

An Excursion will tow 11,000.

75+ mph up 10% grades with a 7,000 lb trailer is pretty damned impressive in

Um....nope. 4500lb jeep on 2000 lb trailer = 53mph over Parleys, which is a 10% grade. I've repeated that several times in my '99 454, which is no dog, as compared to other vortec 454s. I don't believe an 8.1 would do it much faster. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the 8.1 and I LOVE the burbs, but to pull Parleys, or any other big hill at a high speed, you're gonna be in 2nd. It's a gas thing. Same with a hemi or 5.3 or 5.4 or any other. I could do soldiers at 65 in my burb towing the jeep...if I wanted to keep it tacked to 4500 rpm, which I didn't. I did it at 70 in my psd X last week, at 2000 rpms in od and a little less than 3000 in D. Sweet.

Burbs great, I LOVED mine. Still have it, and I turn it in on the 10th of Sept. Residual is $12K, if any one wants it. Had a guy offer me $11K for it yesterday, but I'm not taking less than I owe, and he was gonna tow 10,200 lbs with it anyway. I towed close to the limit when I towed the U4fundraiser jeep to Moab behind my jeep and it did great, just like it did for 4 years for me.

The thing I'm not hearing is wheelbase...the expy is too short, and the other 1/2tons are too lightly sprung to safely tow anything over 5K lbs, NO MATTER WHAT the rating is. You get in an emergency situation, and you want the stability, especially 4-wheelers that live around SLC and drive to Moab, or boaters that live in SLC and drive to Powell through Utah county and on Hwy 6, one of the most dangerous roads in America.
 
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metalry101

R/C addict
Location
Sandy, UT
Maverick said:
Um....nope. 4500lb jeep on 2000 lb trailer = 53mph over Parleys, which is a 10% grade. I've repeated that several times in my '99 454, which is no dog, as compared to other vortec 454s. I don't believe an 8.1 would do it much faster. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the 8.1 and I LOVE the burbs, but to pull Parleys, or any other big hill at a high speed, you're gonna be in 2nd. It's a gas thing. Same with a hemi or 5.3 or 5.4 or any other. I could do soldiers at 65 in my burb towing the jeep...if I wanted to keep it tacked to 4500 rpm, which I didn't. I did it at 70 in my psd X last week, at 2000 rpms in od and a little less than 3000 in D. Sweet.

The thing I'm not hearing is wheelbase...the expy is too short, and the others are too lightly sprung to safely tow anything over 5K lbs, NO MATTER WHAT the rating is. You get in an emergency situation, and you want the stability, especially 4-wheelers that live around SLC and drive to Moab, or boaters that live in SLC and drive to Powell through Utah county and on Hwy 6, one of the most dangerous roads in America.
The 8.1 'Burb I was riding in was on it's way to Powell, so this was on a road down south somewhere. We took I-15 and turned off of that somewhere way down south. We did not go through SF Canyon, I know that much. I don't know if it was a 10% grade, but it was very, very steep, and it did do 75 MPH up it. It was pulling 4500 RPM's, and the hill wasn't nearly as long as Parley's, which probably both contribute to the speed at which it was able to do it. I don't know if it would have pulled Parley's at 75. I think it might have done 65 up it, and maybe 75, if it kept it's momentum. If someone pulled out in front of him and he had to get out of it, it would have been 55 the rest of the way.

As for the wheelbase thing...if I understand you correctly, no vehicle in this thread is capable of safely towing more than 5,000 lbs. What would be then? A long bed, 4 door Super Duty? That's huge...and it has a payload capacity in the neighborhood of 2 tons, so spring rates shouldn't really be an issue either. What do you suggest? Honestly, that last paragraph doesn't make a lot of sense to me...I mean I understand what you're saying about stability and being able to control the trailer be important...but it's a complete contradiction of the rest of your post. Maybe I'm an idiot, but it's pretty unclear to me what you were trying to say exactly. You say in your previous post that the Expedition is an awesome tow rig after you fix the suspension, but in this post you say the wheelbase is too short and it can't safely tow over 5,000 lbs. I'm lost.
 
metalry101 said:
As for the wheelbase thing...if I understand you correctly, no vehicle in this thread is capable of safely towing more than 5,000 lbs. What would be then? A long bed, 4 door Super Duty? That's huge...and it has a payload capacity in the neighborhood of 2 tons, so spring rates shouldn't really be an issue either. What do you suggest? Honestly, that last paragraph doesn't make a lot of sense to me...I mean I understand what you're saying about stability and being able to control the trailer be important...but it's a complete contradiction of the rest of your post. Maybe I'm an idiot, but it's pretty unclear to me what you were trying to say exactly. You say in your previous post that the Expedition is an awesome tow rig after you fix the suspension, but in this post you say the wheelbase is too short and it can't safely tow over 5,000 lbs. I'm lost.

Oops, sorry.

expy = expedition
X = excursion
burb = 3/4ton suburban

expy and tahoe are too short and too lightly sprung

X and burb have longer wheelbase and adequate suspensions (after the X is corrected)

Sorry for the miscom. I agree that must seem confusing...I'm gonna edit it.
 

Houndoc

Registered User
Location
Grantsville
I am not big on buying a vehicle so I can change it if a stock vehicle does the job- so the 'burb wins over either Ford.

One down side to the 3/4 ton vs 1/2 ton burb is ground clearance is significantly lower.

The size of boat I (hopefully) will be towing does not need an extreme rig. My Dad tows same thing with his 6 cyl GC. Slows down over the steep grades, but so be it.

The reall question I will need to answer is just how much room inside I want vs how large of a vehicle my wife would want to drive around town. The larger burban is great when you need people, gear and dogs inside but a Tahoe or Sequia would be nicer around town.

Thanks for the warnings on the problems with the Excursions. Problems like that is exactly what I was looking for.
 

mbryson

.......a few dollars more
Supporting Member
Houndoc said:
................The size of boat I (hopefully) will be towing does not need an extreme rig. My Dad tows same thing with his 6 cyl GC. Slows down over the steep grades, but so be it...........


:eek: (I have 6 cyl Grand)
 

Jay5.9L

...I just filled the cup.
Location
Riverton
If you are considering the Tahoe, try the Armada first. they came out in 2004 so maybe the 2005/2006 models got all the bugs worked out. It will out tow a Tahoe easy (Of course the redesigned tahoe will be here in about 6 months)
 

Houndoc

Registered User
Location
Grantsville
Jay5.9L said:
If you are considering the Tahoe, try the Armada first. they came out in 2004 so maybe the 2005/2006 models got all the bugs worked out. It will out tow a Tahoe easy (Of course the redesigned tahoe will be here in about 6 months)

How about off-road though? Again, not expecting a rock crawler but anyone know if the Armada "Off-Road" package does much? I'll have to surf the magazine reviews and see what I can find.
 

mbryson

.......a few dollars more
Supporting Member
Houndoc said:
Don't be so shocked- does well. He has done it the last two years to Powell and I have towed the same boats shorter distances with my XJ before I sold it.



ZJ=Weak brakes, marginal to adequete transmission and coil spring rear......Nothing I want to even tow my tent trailer with in the stock configuration.
 

Jay5.9L

...I just filled the cup.
Location
Riverton
Houndoc said:
How about off-road though? Again, not expecting a rock crawler but anyone know if the Armada "Off-Road" package does much? I'll have to surf the magazine reviews and see what I can find.


Ots probably in the same league as the Tahoe. It does had rear independant suspension but it has good ground clerance and the tires are huge comapared to the Tahoe. For getting to the camp site I'm sure its just fine.
 
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