Left knee telling me get a slushy

[Maverick]

So this thread isn't to discuss the pro's/con's of auto vs manual, it's just about options.

I love auto's and will never build another crawler without one. My scrambler has always been manual, and I really like it. I had pretty much decided that it would probably not ever get an auto. At times I wish it were an auto, but mostly I'm glad that it's not. It is fun to climb stuff with no throttle, and fun to work the clutch/throttle to do stuff. The TBI454 makes that fun. The manual is also part of my jeep's character and history. I have no doubt that with an auto there will be things that I will be able to climb that I currently cannot.

Problem is, my left knee just isn't getting younger, and a strange thing happened during the 9 glorious days of Jeep Safari this year: by the end of day two, after not driving the jeep much last winter, my left knee was complaining. I took notice but cowboyed up and had a good time. Today, driving it to work and to get it inspected, same knee, same story. Aargh!

I'm gonna see the doc for the knee, but I'd like to consider the options for auto. I'm told (have not verified) that a TH400/205 is the same length (within an inch) of my 465/205. And if I do a Lomax, it would be a pretty clean swap and my overall gearing, including torque converter, would be about the same as it is now, maybe a touch lower. But I'll have some heat to get rid of, which is already an issue, though an aluminum radiator and taurus fan would make it better.

Other thoughts are a built 700r4/Lomax or TH350/Lomax or any of those trannies combined an atlas or even passenger drop 241 with SYE. Budget is important, as is durability. I'm not after crazy low gears. 60:1 gets it done with the 454, even with 39" tires and 4.56 gears.

Let the games begin.

 

[jeep-N-montero]

Have you tried installing a more adjustable seat to see if changing your seating position helps your knee? I ask because my uncle went through this in his 50's and the seat change made a difference due to a lower position and being further back. Totally changed the angle of his knee and required less effort to push the clutch in. I know my knee is less fatigued driving our Miata versus driving the tow rig because I'm sitting lower and clutch action is more direct.

I hope that made sense.

 

[Maverick]

Have you tried installing a more adjustable seat to see if changing your seating position helps your knee? I ask because my uncle went through this in his 50's and the seat change made a difference due to a lower position and being further back. Totally changed the angle of his knee and required less effort to push the clutch in. I know my knee is less fatigued driving our Miata versus driving the tow rig because I'm sitting lower and clutch action is more direct.

I hope that made sense.

Yup, makes sense. I need to look at all the options. Seat position definitely makes a difference. My seats are tied into the cage, so there's not a whole lot of room to go down. Break out the gas wrench! Crank up the glucosamine. Or cortisone shot?

 

[I Lean]

Is the motion what is hurting you, or the pressure? Maybe a clutch with less pedal pressure required to disengage would help? (I'm assuming there is something available....like a Centerforce or similar...)

 

[Maverick]

Is the motion what is hurting you, or the pressure? Maybe a clutch with less pedal pressure required to disengage would help? (I'm assuming there is something available....like a Centerforce or similar...)

Good point. Both. Probably more the motion, holding it down doesn't bother me so much, mostly the act of pushing it in and letting it out. Seat position plays in, the straighter my leg, the less it hurts. Been a long time coming, just didn't think it would affect clutching.

I think it's a typical 3-finger heavy-duty truck type clutch. Not sure if there is a Centerforce/diaphram type available for it. It's been in there forever, with lots of abuse.

 

[Tacoma]

I wouldn't even consider a 700r4 behind a 454. I've got a spare 400 here if you're interested, or a much-more-pricey-to-rebuild 4L80E..

If it were me,(and hey! it is! I'm building a YJ w/that drivetrain...) I'd do a 400 and a clocked NP241 w/an SYE. I like the 2.72:1, and the fact that they are available and dont' cost a million bucks like the admittedly bitchin' Lomax.

anyway, you know where to find me.

 

[neagtea]

Put the clutch pedal where the throttle is and vice versa. Then you will be able to wear out your other knee...


How much is the lowmax? The range box from ORD may be a good way to go and have two low ranges.stay away from the 700r4 if you are wanting a budget build.

 

[Maverick]

I wouldn't even consider a 700r4 behind a 454. I've got a spare 400 here if you're interested, or a much-more-pricey-to-rebuild 4L80E..

If it were me,(and hey! it is! I'm building a YJ w/that drivetrain...) I'd do a 400 and a clocked NP241 w/an SYE. I like the 2.72:1, and the fact that they are available and dont' cost a million bucks like the admittedly bitchin' Lomax.

anyway, you know where to find me.

No 700r4 behind even a lowly TBI454? Not a lot of hp, a fair grunt of torque. Oh, and someday it'll get an 8.1, so maybe not.

So I'm lookin' for a '91 burb tcase? There's one in the blaza, but it's stayin' put.

Length on 400/241? I don't have much room, and don't wanna move stuff.

mmkay: 400 (2.48) x 241 x 4.56 x torque converter 2:1 = 61.5:1
700(3.0) X 241 X 4.56 X torque converter 2:1 = 74.4:1

Current 465 x 205 x 4.56 = 59.13:1 (or infinity with masterful slippage of el-clutcho) so either of those work.

What about locking torque converters? Do any of the cool kids use those? (I'm thinking heat issues) I just really haven't paid attention to auto's even though EVERYONE has one.

 

[Maverick]

I've also always kind of planned on someday swapping in an 8.1. Seems like it would be a bolt in, plus some wiring. And I'd have to pull the cage to pull the dash to swap 'puters. Ugh.

But back to slushy things.

So...maybe an idea is to just find an 8.1/auto combo, and then a 241 from a '91 and do the SYE? Still need to see if the length is right. Anyone know offhand what the length is of a 241 with SYE?

 

[Kevin B.]

No advice on the transmissions, but until you get around to seeing the doc, compression will do wonders for the knee. If you can't find a brace that fits right, even a snug ace bandage will help tremendously.

I have arthritis beginning in my right ankle, and no cruise control in the 4Runner. I wrap my ankle for long drives and it makes an amazing difference.

 

[phatfoto]

No advice on drivetrain, but agree compression on the knee will help some. Also alternate between icing and heating pads. I always did hate Ace type wraps, though, by the end of the day they are just plain uncomfortable. 2 1/2 years ago I finally caved with total knee replacement. In my case, things went very well, and I won't hesitate to do the other before I get to that level of pain. Not saying replacent is where you are headed, just giving my own background and that I tried everything. Absolutely see your doctor, ask to see a sports orthopedic. And don't be afraid to shop around for one you like. You may need little more than physical therapy and a change of shoes/insoles.

 

[I Lean]

How can you figure a 2:1 ratio for the torque converter, but figure infinite slippage for a clutch?

My votes depend on your immediate budget. If you can swing the 8.1, then that's the obvious answer. :greg:

If not, probably a TH400 with a doubler of some kind and your 205. Either a 203/205, or one of the planetary options in front of the 205. I don't think you'll be terribly happy with the ratios you're looking at otherwise. I was really happy with my 48:1 in my last buggy (TH400, 3.8 Atlas, 5:13's)...but then again, you have a bunch more torque than I did, so you can get away with a bit lower ratio. So maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Hickey]

I was at 60:1 in my old CJ5 with small block, C4, 4.56's and D300. With 38.5" swampers, it did okay on the trails. I didn't have that setup for very long, but I suspect heat generation would have killed that tranny soon.

I would do the 8.1 if you could swing it, or TH400 203/205 doubler. The nice thing about the doubler or the 241 is you'll be able to tuck your tummy.

 

[I Lean]

I was at 60:1 in my old CJ5 with small block, C4, 4.56's and D300. With 38.5" swampers, it did okay on the trails. I didn't have that setup for very long, but I suspect heat generation would have killed that tranny soon.

I would do the 8.1 if you could swing it, or TH400 203/205 doubler. The nice thing about the doubler or the 241 is you'll be able to tuck your tummy.

I come up with just under 30:1 with your CJ5's setup. Or are you doing the 2:1 torque converter thing too?

Anyway, I'm going to say you'll be reasonably happy with anything north of around 40:1 with an auto. (actual gears, since we all know a torque converter exists in that mix somewhere )

 

[DaveB]

You can do a cheap SYE on the 241 by using a Dodge 241 case and a chevy 241 input shaft. You can also clock it by re-drilling one hole. I did this on my commando and it has worked out well.

 

[Unimog]

700R4 couldn't even handle an anemic small block in the early days. Over the years, they were improved enough to handle most small blocks. I wouldn't ever put one behind a big block.

On the knee, don't give up hope. There are several knee ailments that respond well to PT.

 

[gijohn40]

change the clutch linkage to a hydraulic one and it will be softer to push in... specially if you get one that multiplies the force.

or you can just got to the gym more and work on strengthening the knee... god knows your arms don't need anymore work! lol

 

[Hickey]

I come up with just under 30:1 with your CJ5's setup. Or are you doing the 2:1 torque converter thing too?

Anyway, I'm going to say you'll be reasonably happy with anything north of around 40:1 with an auto. (actual gears, since we all know a torque converter exists in that mix somewhere )

I must have used the slushy math for that 60:1. It was years ago I figured it.

 

[flexyfool]

X2 on the hydraulic pedal and the centerforce clutch.

 

[thenag]

I was going to ask if it is a hydraulic setup or not. I thought that the sm465 was available with a hydro setup from the factory.

PM me if interested I think my father in law has a bell housing from a burb buried somewhere...

Nathan

change the clutch linkage to a hydraulic one and it will be softer to push in... specially if you get one that multiplies the force.

or you can just got to the gym more and work on strengthening the knee... god knows your arms don't need anymore work! lol