Legacy Parkway

[Cherokeester]

Four lanes, two each way. Its a fairly well documented fact that adding additional lanes does nothing to reduce traffic congestion.

Hmm... sure seems to be helping to me, I would like to see your documentation on that one.

 

[Spork]

Four lanes, two each way. Its a fairly well documented fact that adding additional lanes does nothing to reduce traffic congestion.

What are you smoking? :brett: If that were the case why not one lane each direction? or only one lane for both directions? Your logic is flawed.

 

[mbryson]

Four lanes, two each way. Its a fairly well documented fact that adding additional lanes does nothing to reduce traffic congestion.

????????

What have you been iSmoking?

 

[Slangy]

I drove it this morning after dropping my wife off at the airport. I thought it was kind of nice. You can tell that they plan on adding another lane in the future since there is such a large gap inbetween the North and Southbound lanes. Once we get more people in the state and traffic gets worse they can come back and say we need to add additional lanes to fix the congestion. I think they just did 2 lanes now to get it approved and calm down the people who opposed the project in the first place.
IMO the only thing they really disturbed was the overwhelming growth of the majestic Russian Olive tree which is a nuissance anyway.

 

[Stephen]

Suburban Nation by Andres Duany is probably the easiest read and discusses what is called "implied traffic" where the addition of lanes creates more traffic. I don't have the book with me at work, so I don't have their research but if you desire, I can post it later.
Another book has extensive research on the topic is Contemporary Urban Planning by John Levy.
As for individual articles, I have a number, but again at home. But for a point of reference, look at LA. Over the past 40 years they have added more lanes to their road network than any place in the nation and their traffic congestion has arguably gotten worse. Yes, population increase is a major part of that, but so is the design of the transportation network. The implication that having more and more lanes means more and more people can drive.
Now obviously you have to have an alternative to driving to make this relevant, and we do now for the north bound commute in FrontRunner. Several of the studies in the aforementioned books show that when highways are restricted to two or three lanes in either direction with viable alternatives, traffic is reduced. When you add lanes, even with alternatives, traffic levels increase. With no alternatives it increases exponentially.
Now I'm not saying that the Legacy Parkway is a bad thing, we obviously needed a second major road corridor up there, but we didn't need another super highway. I think that the combination of Legacy and FrontRunner will have a positive impact on the commute.

 

[mbryson]

........ but we didn't need another super highway. I think that the combination of Legacy and FrontRunner will have a positive impact on the commute.

Uh, I don't have the educational background on this that you do, but IT'S F**KING STUPID to think that a four lane I-15 and FrontRunner will handle all the traffic for commuting to/from SLC. I rode the "luge" (1-15 southbound during the pre-Olympic construction) and would rather do that than deal with the current northern suburb commuting traffic. Ultimately, I think the Legacy will turn into another 6 lane.

Legacy WILL help with the bottleneck that starts at about 500 South in Bountiful and 'eases' up about the 215 exit for the morning commute. It would make sense that the 215 merge could be 'lighter', but I can you let you know this evening.

Northbound were TWO alternatives. Redwood Road and I-15/Hwy 89/crappy frontage road (that COULD be useful if it connected properly). Now there's a third. I had a LOVELY commute this morning. Here's for hoping. I might even pull about 17-18 mpg out of my deezel if I can keep it moving.


(personally, I'd LOVE to find a job in Centerville, West Bountiful, Bountiful, Woods Cross or North Salt Lake and F**K the commute--I'm just over 10 miles from my work, though.)

 

[RockMonkey]

Opening the new road will ease congestion in the short term. In the long term an easy commute will just allow an increased number of people to move to more reasonably-priced real estate up North, while working in Salt Lake County. Eventually this will result in more cars on the road, and the same congestion that we had last year.

As disagreeable as Stephen is, I can see his point on this one.

 

[mbryson]

Opening the new road will ease congestion in the short term. In the long term an easy commute will just allow an increased number of people to move to more reasonably-priced real estate up North, while working in Salt Lake County. Eventually this will result in more cars on the road, and the same congestion that we had last year.

As disagreeable as Stephen is, I can see his point on this one.

We're running out of buildable land in Davis County PDQ. West Point, Syracuse and Layton are kinda running out of room to expand. I'm surprised people from up there commute (and we have some in this office).

My frustration is that people that don't drive that commute seem to "KNOW" what we need. We needed another alternative quite badly. We have it and I really hope it does what it needs to do.

FrontRunner has helped (although I'm back to driving my truck again for a number of reasons) and I hope Legacy helps more. There are days in the past month or so I've traveled actual freeway speeds to the 2600 So. exit. I was shocked.

 

[Stephen]

Uh, I don't have the educational background on this that you do, but IT'S F**KING STUPID to think that a four lane I-15 and FrontRunner will handle all the traffic for commuting to/from SLC. I rode the "luge" (1-15 southbound during the pre-Olympic construction) and would rather do that than deal with the current northern suburb commuting traffic. Ultimately, I think the Legacy will turn into another 6 lane.

I never said that a four-lane I-15 and FrontRunner would handle it. I said that I-15 (as is) Legacy (as is) FrontRunner with expanded service+a street car network or Bus Rapid Transit in Davis County should be able to handle our transportation needs for decades to come.

Don't get me wrong, I love driving! But in a urban environment it's reasonable to think that we need other options. Many people see driving as a chore, so lets give them the choice to take something else. Gets them of the road and make driving more enjoyable for those that have to or want to.

And why turn Legacy into a six lane? Think about this, just like mall parking lots, highways are built for maximum capacity. Rush hour. Drive I-15 at 1:00pm and its empty. Why waste the money of additional unused infrastructure? Rail or BRT is cheaper. If people have the options, they will take them.

 

[Stephen]

Opening the new road will ease congestion in the short term. In the long term an easy commute will just allow an increased number of people to move to more reasonably-priced real estate up North, while working in Salt Lake County. Eventually this will result in more cars on the road, and the same congestion that we had last year.

This is essentially what "implied traffic" is.

As disagreeable as Stephen is, I can see his point on this one.

Thanks, ass.

 

[mbryson]

I never said that a four-lane I-15 and FrontRunner would handle it. I said that I-15 (as is) Legacy (as is) FrontRunner with expanded service+a street car network or Bus Rapid Transit in Davis County should be able to handle our transportation needs for decades to come.

Don't get me wrong, I love driving! But in a urban environment it's reasonable to think that we need other options. Many people see driving as a chore, so lets give them the choice to take something else. Gets them of the road and make driving more enjoyable for those that have to or want to.

And why turn Legacy into a six lane? Think about this, just like mall parking lots, highways are built for maximum capacity. Rush hour. Drive I-15 at 1:00pm and its empty. Why waste the money of additional unused infrastructure? Rail or BRT is cheaper. If people have the options, they will take them.

I-15 at mid day is still pretty busy, just not packed.

I'm an ideal candidate for a bus. Guess what, there's not one. The current bus system in Davis is ridiculous. I have to go in early and leave early due to bus scheduling (I'd actually prefer that but it's not really an option for my place of employment). The bus is over a mile from my house and if I miss the bus due to the long walk or them just being early (???), I get to walk a mile back home and fire up my truck. I agree there could/should be alternatives, but I don't see UTA as capable of implementing them. I HATE driving the commute. Maybe it's my advanced age or something, but I'd prefer just sitting and listening to my personal radio or something.

The only thing that "works" for me is to ride my bike up to the FrontRunner stop. I'm sure you've read about the bike issues on FrontRunner? There's space for two bikes and people try to stuff about 10-12 in there. (I'd love to ride into work....my physique would appreciate it a lot. I don't have a shower available, though. That would be a severe disservice to my co-workers.)

I live near a LARGE development and I'd ASSUME there are a number of people there that work in downtown SLC, West Valley, the airport area or wherever that might be interested in public transit. There's also some LARGE developments west of Redwood Road in North Salt Lake that I wonder if they are even served by UTA.

(I still see Legacy as a 6 lane.)

UTA made little sense when I lived in West Jordan. I lived 3 houses off Redwood at about 8400 south. It took over an hour to get downtown??? My Cherokee was pretty bad ass and it only took me about 30-40 min to drive it into town and I had a vehicle if I needed to run work errands (fairly frequent).

 

[Spork]

Opening the new road will ease congestion in the short term. In the long term an easy commute will just allow an increased number of people to move to more reasonably-priced real estate up North, while working in Salt Lake County. Eventually this will result in more cars on the road, and the same congestion that we had last year.

As disagreeable as Stephen is, I can see his point on this one.

Kind of like a chicken and the egg type thing? If there were less eggs we have less chickens, and if we had less chickens we would have less eggs? But we have a ton of chickens and we have a ton of eggs but they don't all fit in the hen house so you better get working on something.

 

[kbjames]

Both my Dad, now retired, and my brother are civil engineers. According to them while it is true that "if you build it, they will come"..I wouldn't use it as a mantra to stop building. By that logic, everything should be two lane highway. Can you imagine trying that gig?

Growing up in the Bay Area, where traffic there makes SLC look like a cake walk, one learns early on its all about finding alternate routes. Sometimes your stuck and there is only one vein thru a critical area. But finding these alternative roads can help alleivate traffic for every one.

 

[1969 CJ-5]

Four lanes, two each way. Its a fairly well documented fact that adding additional lanes does nothing to reduce traffic congestion.

Whenever they plop down extra lanes in the Phoenix area it seems to work.

 

[Stephen]

Whenever they plop down extra lanes in the Phoenix area it seems to work.

For how long? We are continuing to build our cities around the needs of the car (I'm going to catch hell for that). And I hate to admit it, but I'm tired of that. We need transit, on a massive scale. We used to have one of the most extensive trolley networks in the western US, it was torn up in the late 40's and early 50's. We did that to make way for the car (See: National Transit Lines). And as stated above, I love driving. Adding lane after lane though is not the answer to congestion! Do we want SLC to look like LA?

 

[kbjames]

Stephen,

your problem is twofold.

1) Who wants to take public transit when they have a much faster option,like driving thier car, available to them? Throw in weather factors like cold, rain, extreme heat and who wants to deal with waiting in line or walking 1/2 mile from the train station to work.

2) As you mention, other than rush hour, mass transit is also way underutilized most of the time. Why pay for smog emitting buses to run all over town with 4 riders per bus.

In the end though, I think many value thier time more and don't have all that time to take public transit even if it is cheaper. In my case, I can easily drive to and from work roundtrip in under 50min-1 hour. To take public transport would be at least 2.5 hours total....

Widening the arties can certainly ease traffic conditions, especially when combined with alternative route seeking.

 

[Stephen]

Stephen,

your problem is twofold.

1) Who wants to take public transit when they have a much faster option,like driving thier car, available to them? Throw in weather factors like cold, rain, extreme heat and who wants to deal with waiting in line or walking 1/2 mile from the train station to work.

More people than you think. Look at the success of TRAX, everyone said that was pointless and everyone would prefer to drive. Also as I mentioned, many people feel that driving is a chore. Those people are probably the same people who would be pleased to take transit.

2) As you mention, other than rush hour, mass transit is also way underutilized most of the time. Why pay for smog emitting buses to run all over town with 4 riders per bus.

You can scale transit though. You can have five buses running a route at peak hours, and only one in off times. You can also shift buses to where they are needed most. You can't do that with roads. Also, most modern buses are CNG or 'clean burning' diesel.

In the end though, I think many value thier time more and don't have all that time to take public transit even if it is cheaper. In my case, I can easily drive to and from work roundtrip in under 50min-1 hour. To take public transport would be at least 2.5 hours total....

I'll point to TRAX again as an argument against that. Additionally, Denver and Portland, Oregon. Same arguments before they implemented their transit systems, same result. People will take transit if they feel that it is viable.

Widening the arties can certainly ease traffic conditions, especially when combined with alternative route seeking.

For how long? Do we just keep widening every time traffic gets bad? Just build another road to bypass the congested one? What happens when you can't build anymore roads?

 

[gijohn40]

when the time comes that you can't build anymore roads is also the time that they can't build anymore homes so it equals out in the end...

Today I took the legacy from layton to the international center... it cut 10 mins off my time (one way) and was nice the only thing I hated was the self imposed road blocks... the people that had to drive only 55 in the passing lane and at every turn they slowed down to 45... seems people can't maintain their speed in the corners...

It was nice making it home from the international center to layton in only 35 mins instead of the usual 45-60 mins... but I think that one more lane and/or moving the speed limit up to 60-65 would have been a greater help in reducing travel time....

 

[Brett]

International center aye? Which building do you work out mr gijohn40? (I'm out here too)

 

[mbryson]

Wow, I got home today in about 18-20 min. I'd assume at least 5-7 of that was on surface streets in SLC.

I hope that trend continues.