- Location
- Grand Junction, CO
Have you driven it yet? Looking forward to hearing your report on the power & torque from the stroker!
Jeep Nathan and Tanja's 99 XJ Build up
- Thread starter thenag
- Start date
-
- Tags
- build thread
Pile of parts
Well-Known Member
- Location
- South Jordan
Nice work! Hope all goes well on the shakedown run. Let me know your Safari schedule, be fun to run another trail with you guys again.
(We ran Moab Rim in the orange Jeep with you a couple years back)
(We ran Moab Rim in the orange Jeep with you a couple years back)
Yes about 600 miles on it. This was one of those things that I really did for on road. With the np231/d300 I didn't feel like I needed any more grunt off road (except that one time I was out on Moab Rim and we were playing on the sand hills and that guy with the V8 in the CJ was blasting up hills... Pile of Parts)
I have started looking for a replacement for the "I may be slow but I can go anywhere" license plate holder. I can keep up with traffic without keeping 4000 rpms in 4th gear.
I will get it dynoed soon. Since ambient air temp has so much to do with hp I want to get it done before it gets hot. (the before test was done when it was snowing... 107 RWHP)
I may still pay for Flying Ryan to tune it. If I do that I will dyno it again so then I can let everyone know if paying the $500 for tuning is actually worth it. (of course to get that info requires paying another $100 for another dyno run...)
We avoid EJS, looks like our spring Moab dates are 5/18 - 5/21
Nathan
Ok so we went out to Rattlesnake on 6/5. It was really nice to be able to use the cruise control in 5th gear on the highway. My wife's comment was "power-wise it seems stock" which is what I was looking for.
However the electric fan seems to run all the time.
So time for a hood vent.
I picked this up for $15.00 at Home Depot,
remove hood, measure, cut hole
so it should look something like this
reinstall hood
paint vent black (I did consider not using any fastners and just using silicone to stick it in place but I thought it would suck for that thing to come off at 70mph.)
Pic with SS button bolts
Oh yeah I also replaced the fuel injector adapters with plugs that I got from a Ford in the Junk Yard. I soldered the connectors in. I took no pictures of that, maybe I will take some pics of the adapters and wires...
Nathan
However the electric fan seems to run all the time.
So time for a hood vent.
I picked this up for $15.00 at Home Depot,
remove hood, measure, cut hole
so it should look something like this
reinstall hood
paint vent black (I did consider not using any fastners and just using silicone to stick it in place but I thought it would suck for that thing to come off at 70mph.)
Pic with SS button bolts
Oh yeah I also replaced the fuel injector adapters with plugs that I got from a Ford in the Junk Yard. I soldered the connectors in. I took no pictures of that, maybe I will take some pics of the adapters and wires...
Nathan
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Pile of parts
Well-Known Member
- Location
- South Jordan
Sorry about the sand
My jeep really has more bark than bite. You're probably on line, power/torque wise now. Sounds like you did great. Getting it back to feeling "stock" with the added weight/rolling mass is a huge improvement.I don't blame you. We'll catch up with you again sometime on the trail.
Ok so as promised I got the Jeep dynoed post stroker.
The original motor was a 1999 4.0L with no modifications other than removed air box (for York OBA)
The stroker is all from Clegg Machine. It is a "Stage III" stroker kit with a Stage I cam. Head was ported and valves were enlarged to GM style valves. Compression should be around 9.3:1. I am running bosch spark plugs that are "one step colder" than stock. The only other modification I made was to install Ford 24lb fuel injectors. (that I happened to have on the shelf from the old Bronco. I did have them tested and cleaned)
The before dyno run was done at a diesel place and all they gave me was 107 rwhp at 4000rpm in 3rd gear.
So I went to another place, I actually went to a place that is 2 blocks from Clegg Machine in Orem, Turbo Labs. The guy I worked with, Joe, (I believe he is the owner) actually seemed interested in the Jeep even though his shop is more for the tuner guys.
I explained to Joe that I put Ford fuel injectors in it and that I was considering having Flying Ryan do a tune for me. He said with confidence that he could get the same results as Flying Ryan, but he said lets see what the Air Fuel Ratio is before we talk about that. Joe seems like a guy that wants to have real data before making changes.
He was shocked by how small my exhaust is, but as he was strapping it down to dyno he realized why it was done like that. He did point out that my new flat spot on the oil pan was going to suck in heat from the exhaust, he said that flat spots tend to soak up heat. So he warned me that I need to watch my oil temps and should install a small heat shield on the down pipe.
So he did two dyno pulls and came up with;
128 rwhp and 194 ft/lbs
So an increase of 21HP at the wheels. I was hoping for a bit more. He thinks the exhaust might be limiting it a bit.
He had a probe in the exhaust (to measure Air/Fuel) and said he was shocked and surprised that the A/F was almost perfect. He kept going on how good it was and said that for what I was doing it wasn't worth having any tuning done. We talked a little and Joe figured out that the Ford fuel injectors must be the same % increase as 4.0 to 4.6L.
Afterwards I did some digging and Joe is right.
4.0 to 4.6 is 15%
The OEM injectors (blue tip) are 22.5lb/hr at 49psi
The Ford injectors are 24lb/hour at 39psi or 26.5 @ 49psi
22.5 to 26.5 is about 16% increase.
So for me all the "tuning" that needed to be done was changing the injectors.
Joe said he could do some tuning and most of it would be advancing the timing a bit more but he said that during the dyno pulls the advance was ok, not great but ok, and not worth my money for what I am doing. He said it would be better spent on re-doing the exhaust (again)
I did check the temp of my oil pan with a IR temp gun and it was at 250 degrees, so I need to get some synthetic oil in there ASAP. I am fiddling with some AL for a little heat shield. I am also considering an oil cooler, however a oil to water cooler is much easier to do, but my cooling system already seems to have its hands full with the stroker.
Hope that helps
Nathan
(Woo-hoo 16 pages of me talking to myself)
*NOTE... AFTER STROKER DYNO NUMBER IS LOW DUE TO EXHAUST ISSUES... READ ON...*
The original motor was a 1999 4.0L with no modifications other than removed air box (for York OBA)
The stroker is all from Clegg Machine. It is a "Stage III" stroker kit with a Stage I cam. Head was ported and valves were enlarged to GM style valves. Compression should be around 9.3:1. I am running bosch spark plugs that are "one step colder" than stock. The only other modification I made was to install Ford 24lb fuel injectors. (that I happened to have on the shelf from the old Bronco. I did have them tested and cleaned)
The before dyno run was done at a diesel place and all they gave me was 107 rwhp at 4000rpm in 3rd gear.
So I went to another place, I actually went to a place that is 2 blocks from Clegg Machine in Orem, Turbo Labs. The guy I worked with, Joe, (I believe he is the owner) actually seemed interested in the Jeep even though his shop is more for the tuner guys.
I explained to Joe that I put Ford fuel injectors in it and that I was considering having Flying Ryan do a tune for me. He said with confidence that he could get the same results as Flying Ryan, but he said lets see what the Air Fuel Ratio is before we talk about that. Joe seems like a guy that wants to have real data before making changes.
He was shocked by how small my exhaust is, but as he was strapping it down to dyno he realized why it was done like that. He did point out that my new flat spot on the oil pan was going to suck in heat from the exhaust, he said that flat spots tend to soak up heat. So he warned me that I need to watch my oil temps and should install a small heat shield on the down pipe.
So he did two dyno pulls and came up with;
128 rwhp and 194 ft/lbs
So an increase of 21HP at the wheels. I was hoping for a bit more. He thinks the exhaust might be limiting it a bit.
He had a probe in the exhaust (to measure Air/Fuel) and said he was shocked and surprised that the A/F was almost perfect. He kept going on how good it was and said that for what I was doing it wasn't worth having any tuning done. We talked a little and Joe figured out that the Ford fuel injectors must be the same % increase as 4.0 to 4.6L.
Afterwards I did some digging and Joe is right.
4.0 to 4.6 is 15%
The OEM injectors (blue tip) are 22.5lb/hr at 49psi
The Ford injectors are 24lb/hour at 39psi or 26.5 @ 49psi
22.5 to 26.5 is about 16% increase.
So for me all the "tuning" that needed to be done was changing the injectors.
Joe said he could do some tuning and most of it would be advancing the timing a bit more but he said that during the dyno pulls the advance was ok, not great but ok, and not worth my money for what I am doing. He said it would be better spent on re-doing the exhaust (again)
I did check the temp of my oil pan with a IR temp gun and it was at 250 degrees, so I need to get some synthetic oil in there ASAP. I am fiddling with some AL for a little heat shield. I am also considering an oil cooler, however a oil to water cooler is much easier to do, but my cooling system already seems to have its hands full with the stroker.
Hope that helps
Nathan
(Woo-hoo 16 pages of me talking to myself)
*NOTE... AFTER STROKER DYNO NUMBER IS LOW DUE TO EXHAUST ISSUES... READ ON...*
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Lifelong Jeeper
Well-Known Member
- Location
- Murray
Great write up if a job well done.
Wow I would have thought it would put out more power. I thought most stokers put our some where about 260-280 HP. Take out 25% for parasitic loss and your at 195 HP. ever with big tires etc you think you would be at least over the 180 RWHP mark.
Could the engine need more break in time?
Could the engine need more break in time?
- Location
- The Land Northward (Bountiful), Utah
Jay, most big 4x4 will see more like 40-50% difference from crank to whp.
Nag has an auto with a torque converter that probably didn't lockup on the dyno, dual transfer cases, heavy tires, wheels and drivelines. Plus lower axle gears and heavier axles, axleshafts, brakes etc...
Considering a stock 4.0HO is rates at 180 or 190 at the crank, 107whp is pretty right on the money.
It's plenty of work, but a 20% hp gain is pretty awesome! I bet it feels like it rips! Glad to see the AF right on the money.
Did you get a Dyno printout you can scan? I'd love to see where it makes what power compared to stock.
Nag has an auto with a torque converter that probably didn't lockup on the dyno, dual transfer cases, heavy tires, wheels and drivelines. Plus lower axle gears and heavier axles, axleshafts, brakes etc...
Considering a stock 4.0HO is rates at 180 or 190 at the crank, 107whp is pretty right on the money.
It's plenty of work, but a 20% hp gain is pretty awesome! I bet it feels like it rips! Glad to see the AF right on the money.
Did you get a Dyno printout you can scan? I'd love to see where it makes what power compared to stock.
- Location
- The Land Northward (Bountiful), Utah
25% is very low. Even by hot rod/ 2wd car standards.
There's a dyno thread on pirate with guys running built buggies with 40's and 400hp dyno certified crate motors only putting 200-210hp to the ground.
Packaging a 5.3 in an XJ is tough, there are guys that have done it, but you're talking motor, radiator, trans, tcase, wiring, etc... a stroker is bolt in and go with the right tuning. Sounds like Nag hit the nail on the head with that.
There's a dyno thread on pirate with guys running built buggies with 40's and 400hp dyno certified crate motors only putting 200-210hp to the ground.
Packaging a 5.3 in an XJ is tough, there are guys that have done it, but you're talking motor, radiator, trans, tcase, wiring, etc... a stroker is bolt in and go with the right tuning. Sounds like Nag hit the nail on the head with that.
no torque converter I smash gears... but yeah.
I know another guy with a recently stroked 4.0 that I think I can talk into getting dynoed. He has a 2000 and doesn't have the smaller than 2 inch exhaust down pipe I have.
Yeah I even have a nice scanner now, I guess I can put them in. We are finally done regearing my father in laws tj so I should be able to get to it this weekend.
I have seen pictures of 5.3 swaps in xj's, it is tight. yes a 5.3 swap would be better, just like a d60/gm 14 bolt swap is better. Both are kind of the generic 4x4 answer, "ah just throw a vortec 350 in it" and "ah just put a d60 under it" I have so much stuff crammed under my hood there is no way I am putting a 5.3 in there.
No snorkle but I did do away with the OEM air box so I am sucking hot air into the engine (not an issue with the dyno run but an issue all other times) I put my York where the factory air box was, the york is worth the hp loss.
Nathan
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Pile of parts
Well-Known Member
- Location
- South Jordan
I think the fact that you and your wife both felt like it was back to stock performance after all the weight and rolling resistance added is more proof than any dyno numbers. Differences you can feel are better than differences you can see on paper. If you had dynoed both numbers at the crank, it would be much easier for readers to see the improvements. You, on the other hand, feel the difference every time you drive it. I say, job well done and congratulations on your injector guess working out so well.
Dyno Sheets
I am not too worried about actual numbers, I had a motor that was sneaking up on a rebuild, I spent quite a bit more to do more than "just rebuild it". The drivability is way better. The main reason I wanted to get actual numbers is so that I could pass on the info to others. The ambient air temp was quite a bit different too, first dyno was done when it was snowing, it was almost shorts weather for second dyno.
I also knew that it wouldn't be nearly like a nice GM 350. There is an XJ, I believe in Reno, that the guy spent time and money putting in a nice stroker and a few years later put in GM 350. I know there are other cases on the internet of people expecting built 350 performance and not being really happy. Truth is my XJ is damn near 6000lbs with tools and a full tank of gas, even with 5.13's the fact that I can now now use my 5th gear is nice.
I am really hoping that Ben will dyno his, he has a fresh stroker in a 2000 xj. The drivetrain is stock he is on 35's, he has an auto. I believe he has stock exhaust, not like my restrictive one. Not totally apples to apples but it would give us more info.
I think the most important thing we confirmed is that swapping in the #24 Ford injectors is pretty much all the tuning that needs to be done, at least for this PCM.
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As mentioned by Joe at turbolabs I had a hot oil pan. I checked with an IR gun. Some spots of the oil pan were 350 degrees. Also the stroker gives off a bunch more heat than stock. Now that it is warming up I am getting nervous about the cooling system.
The engine has not over heated, I am just trying to keep it from becoming an issue.
So first thing was to swap in full synthetic oil that doesn't start to break down at 250 degrees.
Second was some cheesy heat shields. Using the IR gun these have helped a lot. Oil Pan temp on the middle of my new flat spot was over 350 before installing the heat shield, now it is about 240. I still have some spots that are over 300 but most of the pan is under 250. I made these from some aluminum I had laying around hose clamped to the exhaust.
The next mod, and yet another part from a Grand Cherokee, The Napa 272310 fan clutch. Apparently if you are going to do this mod, use this part number at Napa to get the right part. It doesn't seem to cross over to other parts stores correctly, it looks like at Oreilly this part number will get you the OEM XJ fan clutch. The internet says that this clutch keeps the mechanical fan spinning faster, guesses are like 10-30% faster than OEM XJ. The internet also says that this fan clutch will create a bunch of noise and power loss. One thing I do agree with is that if you need this fan clutch you probably have something wrong with your cooling system. Well the problem with my cooling system is that it was designed for a 15% smaller motor that the stock exhaust wasn't really close to the oil pan.
So a quick drive, I can hear it especially from about 2500-3500 rpm, over 3500 the engine/exhaust is louder than the fan. I also really notice it when I down shift. It is not un-bearable, but I have 37 inch mtr's, and gear driven t-case so the Jeep makes plenty of other noise. I don't really think it is much louder than the electric fan. In the quick drive I couldn't get the temp gauge to go above 210. In similar situations the temp was just a bit above 210 most of the time. So with one quick drive it seems to have helped 5-10 degrees if the factory gauge is to be trusted.
So to help out with the hot oil, I remembered that from about 1992-1996 Ford added an oil cooler that mounted to where the oil filter mounted. They only put it on the 351's and use a shorter oil filter. We all know that the Motorcraft FL-1A is my filter of choice for the XJ. So if this oil cooler will mount to a Ford engine with a FL-1A, why wouldn't it mount to a Jeep engine with a FL-1A?
Ford liked this cooler so much they use it on gas Superdutys, however it uses a bigger hex key to remove it so the engine side mount may be different. (I have seen it on every gas SD I have looked at) This cooler is also popular with the Mustang guys since it will easily install on any 302/351. This oil cooler with the shorter filter is about 1 inch longer than the Motorcraft FL-1A. (EFI 460's got a much bigger oil cooler but routing the lower radiator hose over wasn't going to happen)
Ford has a plastic fitting on the lower radiator hose, so that this gets coolant coming right out of the radiator, which is much better than where I am going to get coolant from, but this will be a clean and easy install.
And I have installed yet another Ford part on the Jeep... (this one was from a E350 van with a 351)(I also painted it some kind of Chrysler Red)
Some pictures...
I have not run coolant to it yet but I am just going to route the coolant that is returning from the heater core into the oil cooler and then from the oil cooler back to the cooling system. Measured with the IR gun the lower radiator hose was way under 200 degrees, like 170-180. The hose coming back from the heater core was 210. That is why Ford has it plumbed into the lower radiator hose.
I am making sure it doesn't leak oil before I run coolant to it. In the second picture you can see the hoses going to and coming from the heater core. I have rags stuffed into the fittings on the cooler to keep junk from getting into it. (starter is removed in first picture, this made the install easier) I used a Napa filter since I was there buying a fan clutch anyway. This filter is the same filter that is used on Superdutys, so I guess I can forget the FL-1A and learn the Motorcraft FL820S, which now the Jeep, and my Ford V10 use.
When I get it plumbed I will add pictures.
And yes I realize that I am cooling the oil with coolant, therefore putting more strain on my already marginal cooling system, but the hot oil will put heat into the coolant in the block so I am thinking that the oil cooler will have a marginal effect on overall coolant temp.
Too help keep the stroker cool I installed a FlowKooler water pump when I assembled the motor, and afterwards I added a hood vent (look back a few posts for the hood vent). I replaced the radiator a few years back, I am pretty sure it is a 2 core radiator. It is aluminum core with plastic tanks.
So the only cooling system upgrade I would have left would be to get a high performance radiator. Having the exhaust re-done again so it doesn't run so close to the pan should help too.
Questions?
Thanks!
The engine has not over heated, I am just trying to keep it from becoming an issue.
So first thing was to swap in full synthetic oil that doesn't start to break down at 250 degrees.
Second was some cheesy heat shields. Using the IR gun these have helped a lot. Oil Pan temp on the middle of my new flat spot was over 350 before installing the heat shield, now it is about 240. I still have some spots that are over 300 but most of the pan is under 250. I made these from some aluminum I had laying around hose clamped to the exhaust.
The next mod, and yet another part from a Grand Cherokee, The Napa 272310 fan clutch. Apparently if you are going to do this mod, use this part number at Napa to get the right part. It doesn't seem to cross over to other parts stores correctly, it looks like at Oreilly this part number will get you the OEM XJ fan clutch. The internet says that this clutch keeps the mechanical fan spinning faster, guesses are like 10-30% faster than OEM XJ. The internet also says that this fan clutch will create a bunch of noise and power loss. One thing I do agree with is that if you need this fan clutch you probably have something wrong with your cooling system. Well the problem with my cooling system is that it was designed for a 15% smaller motor that the stock exhaust wasn't really close to the oil pan.
So a quick drive, I can hear it especially from about 2500-3500 rpm, over 3500 the engine/exhaust is louder than the fan. I also really notice it when I down shift. It is not un-bearable, but I have 37 inch mtr's, and gear driven t-case so the Jeep makes plenty of other noise. I don't really think it is much louder than the electric fan. In the quick drive I couldn't get the temp gauge to go above 210. In similar situations the temp was just a bit above 210 most of the time. So with one quick drive it seems to have helped 5-10 degrees if the factory gauge is to be trusted.
So to help out with the hot oil, I remembered that from about 1992-1996 Ford added an oil cooler that mounted to where the oil filter mounted. They only put it on the 351's and use a shorter oil filter. We all know that the Motorcraft FL-1A is my filter of choice for the XJ. So if this oil cooler will mount to a Ford engine with a FL-1A, why wouldn't it mount to a Jeep engine with a FL-1A?
Ford liked this cooler so much they use it on gas Superdutys, however it uses a bigger hex key to remove it so the engine side mount may be different. (I have seen it on every gas SD I have looked at) This cooler is also popular with the Mustang guys since it will easily install on any 302/351. This oil cooler with the shorter filter is about 1 inch longer than the Motorcraft FL-1A. (EFI 460's got a much bigger oil cooler but routing the lower radiator hose over wasn't going to happen)
Ford has a plastic fitting on the lower radiator hose, so that this gets coolant coming right out of the radiator, which is much better than where I am going to get coolant from, but this will be a clean and easy install.
And I have installed yet another Ford part on the Jeep... (this one was from a E350 van with a 351)(I also painted it some kind of Chrysler Red)
Some pictures...
I have not run coolant to it yet but I am just going to route the coolant that is returning from the heater core into the oil cooler and then from the oil cooler back to the cooling system. Measured with the IR gun the lower radiator hose was way under 200 degrees, like 170-180. The hose coming back from the heater core was 210. That is why Ford has it plumbed into the lower radiator hose.
I am making sure it doesn't leak oil before I run coolant to it. In the second picture you can see the hoses going to and coming from the heater core. I have rags stuffed into the fittings on the cooler to keep junk from getting into it. (starter is removed in first picture, this made the install easier) I used a Napa filter since I was there buying a fan clutch anyway. This filter is the same filter that is used on Superdutys, so I guess I can forget the FL-1A and learn the Motorcraft FL820S, which now the Jeep, and my Ford V10 use.
When I get it plumbed I will add pictures.
And yes I realize that I am cooling the oil with coolant, therefore putting more strain on my already marginal cooling system, but the hot oil will put heat into the coolant in the block so I am thinking that the oil cooler will have a marginal effect on overall coolant temp.
Too help keep the stroker cool I installed a FlowKooler water pump when I assembled the motor, and afterwards I added a hood vent (look back a few posts for the hood vent). I replaced the radiator a few years back, I am pretty sure it is a 2 core radiator. It is aluminum core with plastic tanks.
So the only cooling system upgrade I would have left would be to get a high performance radiator. Having the exhaust re-done again so it doesn't run so close to the pan should help too.
Questions?
Thanks!
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- Location
- Grand Junction, CO
How about running a better coolant? I had a motorcycle that was running hot, did a bunch of work including different coolant.... I went with Engine Ice and it made a world of difference. Not sure if it would be affordable compared to a better radiator, but it's an option.
WTF I have never heard of that. High performance coolant... huh...
I love RME and the internet...
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- Location
- Grand Junction, CO
1/2 gallon runs $20/each... - http://www.amazon.com/Engine-Ice-TYDS008-Performance-Coolant/dp/B000H01NFY