My engineering senior design team is going to design a portal axle; we are trying to design it such that it would be easier for the average guy to buy and put on, and maybe such that freeway speeds could be achieved. Ideally, make it a bolt on application; for those of you that have thought about portals, or anyone who has input, what would you like to see for such a thing? What would be most important? Bolt on? Reliability? Daily driver ability? Cost?
portal axles
- Thread starter Will3161
- Start date
Badger
I am the Brute squad
- Location
- South Salt Lake
It's been done before. Most have come to the conclusion that with the strength that's needed comes outrageous pricing. Not sure if you have but do a google search for bolt on portal boxes and you will find plenty of hit.
Artical in Petersens on one such company.
Good luck on finding the right blend of strength and price to make them affordable by the average man.
Artical in Petersens on one such company.
Good luck on finding the right blend of strength and price to make them affordable by the average man.
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rholbrook
Well-Known Member
- Location
- Kaysville, Ut
When I went to AEV in Missoula last year they had a really cool Brute with Portals and a Hemi. I about fell over when they said how many tens of thousands of dollars for the axles.
Good luck with make them affordable. I hope someone can make it so.
Good luck with make them affordable. I hope someone can make it so.
SUPERFLY
CaptainRob
- Location
- sugar house
There's a shady company called portal-tek in north salt lake that was working on a reliable solution for years, my neighbor was deeply involved as their engineer but they got shady and he got out(I don't know all the details) I quit fallowing their progress when he left so I'm not sure if the got all the bugs worked out. As far as I know they had working sets, they were super spendy, I think they were starting to out source a lot of stuff to china to bring costs down? In the last few months if working there my neighbor was working on a drop out 14 bolt 3rd member that would bolt right into a 9 inch housing but I dont know if they got that done either.
Seabed like they modeled their design after the Volvo portal axles but had an extra bearing to support some gear that is common to fail in the Volvo axles.
My biggest problem with portals is cost/advantage. In order to build a rig that works well with portals you have to basically start with the portals and build a rig around them. It's pretty uncommon to be able to already have jeep/ buggy already built, slap a set of portaled axles on and have it worn as well as it did before, cog, clearancing, everything is thrown off. And IMO unless you are dodging cones in competition you probably don't NEED that much clearance and if you are dodging cones Ther is a good chance, depending on the class you are in and event, that you won't be allowed to use portal. As far as the go-fast race stuff they really aren't need but again IMO having my tires "hangdangling" off my axles seems like a weak point in the whole axle, hitting rocks at 80 is a good way to find those weak points, and I wouldn't want the end of my axle fallin off at 80, so make sure they are strong. Another problem you'll run into Is gearing, the reduction box makes for wacky gearing at the diff. Also I think I remember my neighbor complaining that they were having problems breaking outer shafts? If I remember right, he said with all the reductions they calculated that it only took 12 hp to break chromoly shafts with a 40 inch tire? I can't remember all the details but it was something weird like that.
I don't mean to discourage you, just take those thing into consideration while building yours
Seabed like they modeled their design after the Volvo portal axles but had an extra bearing to support some gear that is common to fail in the Volvo axles.
My biggest problem with portals is cost/advantage. In order to build a rig that works well with portals you have to basically start with the portals and build a rig around them. It's pretty uncommon to be able to already have jeep/ buggy already built, slap a set of portaled axles on and have it worn as well as it did before, cog, clearancing, everything is thrown off. And IMO unless you are dodging cones in competition you probably don't NEED that much clearance and if you are dodging cones Ther is a good chance, depending on the class you are in and event, that you won't be allowed to use portal. As far as the go-fast race stuff they really aren't need but again IMO having my tires "hangdangling" off my axles seems like a weak point in the whole axle, hitting rocks at 80 is a good way to find those weak points, and I wouldn't want the end of my axle fallin off at 80, so make sure they are strong. Another problem you'll run into Is gearing, the reduction box makes for wacky gearing at the diff. Also I think I remember my neighbor complaining that they were having problems breaking outer shafts? If I remember right, he said with all the reductions they calculated that it only took 12 hp to break chromoly shafts with a 40 inch tire? I can't remember all the details but it was something weird like that.
I don't mean to discourage you, just take those thing into consideration while building yours
iamsparticus
Take your Rig to the Edge
- Location
- Ogden,Ut
price seems to be the biggest problem, i think being able to design a cheaper less strong yet still strong enough version for the lighter powered and light weight vechiles, like toyotas and sami's you would have a corner market. Then have a heavier more expensive version that is for D60's and V8 rigs.
Portal tech already makes the bolt on portal ends so id look at what their doing and see if you can improve it
Portal tech already makes the bolt on portal ends so id look at what their doing and see if you can improve it
- Location
- Sandy, Ut
Portal-Tek is 100% out business as of last, plenty to read on Pirate if your so inclined. A few of the old owners are still around and involved with other ventures here in the valley, if you really wanted to chat with them about some ideas. An engineer that was working with them at one point was at the U the same time I was in the engineering program, I've still got his contact info if needed.
iamsparticus
Take your Rig to the Edge
- Location
- Ogden,Ut
Really that sucks, i really think its always going to be hard until the price goes down to sell enough to stay in business, what were portal teks portal box going for?
- Location
- Sandy, Ut
$8500 for a front and $7k for a rear, lockers, upgraded shafts, etc were on top of that.
If you have his contact info, that would be very helpful.
We're not sure which direction to go yet, but ideally, whatever we come up with will be affordable, at least to some degree. I think the sami/toyota market is the way to go, personally, as they don't put out a lot of power (usually). A 40 inch tire is about what we are shooting for. One consideration was using commercially available parts, to bring the cost down, and having the only "custom" part be the case.
Robby, what you're saying is something I think will be a big issue...if we make this a bolt on product, will it even be viable? As you said, you kind of have to design the rig around the portals. Hopefully, there is some way to work that out.
(p.s. check your pm's if you get a chance.)
Personally, I think the ideal would be a near indestructible case with guts from commericially available products; that would keep some costs down, while also allowing it to actually be better than what's out there now.
Keep the thoughts/ideas coming.
sixstringsteve
Well-Known Member
- Location
- UT
only issue with the toyota/sami guys that I can see is that most of us are cheap (except for the Landcruiser guys, they actually build their rigs right). Most yota/sami guys won't pay for arb's/elockers, let alone portals.
That being said, I love the idea! No doubt portals are cool, I'm just wondering about the target demographic and the business model.
That being said, I love the idea! No doubt portals are cool, I'm just wondering about the target demographic and the business model.
iamsparticus
Take your Rig to the Edge
- Location
- Ogden,Ut
If you make it i will buy it! if you can make it say for $2000 and perhapes team up with bob long field to make a $3500 axle shaft portal combo for a toyota axle i would totally buy it. i like the idea of using commerically available parts that will cut the cost way down
rholbrook
Well-Known Member
- Location
- Kaysville, Ut
krany
kranberry
- Location
- saratoga springs
Ding ding ding. With that you could select if you want to be in high gears for freeway or ultra low for offroad. I see a future with this idea.Engineer a way to bolt a toyota crawlbox to the minitruck axle.
iamsparticus
Take your Rig to the Edge
- Location
- Ogden,Ut
i used to see a add for these axles in petersens 4wheel mag but it disappeared i always thought the axle looked like a good idea, but also looks really really heavy
rondo
rondo
- Location
- Boise Idaho
From what i've read on pirate this company portal tek took some people's money when they folded. If this is true then i'd like to know who they are so i can avoid their kind.
Portals designed for sami and yota axles? Silly because of the very few years these axles were available. Dana axles are the logical choice and Dana 60 is the ideal one because part of the issue is it needs a solid mounting surface (ie large beefed up knuckle) to make it ideal.
If the price was reasonable i'd get a pair of these in a heartbeat! Pros: You wouldn't have to spend $ to lift your rig, you could get by with the factory 3.xx ring and pinion and wouldn't have to regear and you'd have great ground clearance without running a monster tire.
Cons: stress on the assembly, custom parts if they break are hard to find when you need them most, and not good for 80mph. But really if you need to go 80mph across the desert go IFS.
as for daily driving-- the gear reduction may not be ideal for street use and high speeds, even hwy speeds above 60 for example.
Portals designed for sami and yota axles? Silly because of the very few years these axles were available. Dana axles are the logical choice and Dana 60 is the ideal one because part of the issue is it needs a solid mounting surface (ie large beefed up knuckle) to make it ideal.
If the price was reasonable i'd get a pair of these in a heartbeat! Pros: You wouldn't have to spend $ to lift your rig, you could get by with the factory 3.xx ring and pinion and wouldn't have to regear and you'd have great ground clearance without running a monster tire.
Cons: stress on the assembly, custom parts if they break are hard to find when you need them most, and not good for 80mph. But really if you need to go 80mph across the desert go IFS.
as for daily driving-- the gear reduction may not be ideal for street use and high speeds, even hwy speeds above 60 for example.
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- Location
- Bountiful, land of rocks
Alotta truth right there.
SUPERFLY
CaptainRob
- Location
- sugar house
The problem with the toycrawlbox is that it's designed higher in the drivetrain, therefore it's designed less ridged, because it has no need to be more ridged. For example, part are designed in a pecking order of strength, tranny-tcase-diff-axles a Toyota tcase input is 21 spline, an output is 27 spline, usually pinion gears are 27 spline, then axles are 30 spline with every gear reduction you are putting more stress on parts and woul require stronger parts, a 21 or even 23 spline crawlbox wouldnt last at the end of a 30 spline axle, not to mention the housing itself
sixstringsteve
Well-Known Member
- Location
- UT
that was a really good explanation. I had never considered the increased torque as you get closer to the wheels.