Property Line Conundrum - Anyone a Surveyor here?

[Coco]

First things first, is anyone on here a surveyor?

Today I took my son over to daycare and they gave me a heads up that they are working on getting the remainder of their fence put in within a couple weeks and that they are going to close off the corner of their side yard (their RV parking) back to their fence. They have a couple existing steel poles that they must have added when they poured their concrete pad that he is going to spray paint to match. No biggie, it's their property, do as you please. They then mention that their mailbox is on their property line, and that their new fence will follow that line up to the existing fence (they don't want it to have a step in the fence line, and want it to follow the existing backyard fence). They are claiming that even the top of their mailbox that is not centered and more into my driveway is still part of their property line. I am calling BS on this as if that is the case, that's a good 8-10" at least into my driveway that they are claiming is their property...

You may recall in the Pic of the Day thread we recently got our toy hauler. In that post I mentioned that their mailbox is in my driveway, with ours right next to it and it made parking it a lot harder. I already am planning on moving my mailbox and have approval from the all mighty USPS, but I was going to approach them on moving their mailbox to the other side of their yard to give me more room as well. I guess that won't be happening now unless it is surveyed that it is on my property or at least they are willing to work with me.



I think what spurred them now to get going on their fence and at least seem like forcing me out of more property is they don't want it parked there, or if they are indeed correct on that outlandish property line, then I won't have a place to park either one of my trailers at my house.

Normally, I am not one to start problems or disputes with my neighbors, or in general. I like to keep to myself and just handle my own property, but this has me pretty upset. It seems like a no win situation. Either I let them put their fence onto my assumed property and lose all my trailer parking, or we do a survey and find out that is the case, or what I think has happened and possibly finding out he has encroached onto my property and I ask him to move his mailbox and possibly post. Then the repercussions of possibly losing daycare/price increases, lose friendships, etc.

My wife has been looking at plot lines, information, etc. all day. These photos are the I guess rough property lines, or thought-to-be property lines. I won't hold them to be right in any way, but if they are even close to correct, he is way into my property on that side, and even our other side we are into our neighbor as well. She also found an old photo of our house, but it is hard to tell where or how far over the wood fence went back in '04.



Our House:


Their House:


I am not sure what to do. I don't want to cause problems, but I also am not going to bend over and lose more of my already limited property.

 

[Herzog]

Send those last two photos to him and ask him if he really wants to continue... and if he does, he's responsible for the survey to verify.

 

[DAA]

So, in my neighborhood, there are copper slugs in the curbs to mark property lines at the street. There were benchmarks in the back corners too but those all disappeared as we all built fences and put in lawns etc. Might be worth looking for some kind of marker on the curb?

- DAA

 

[anderson750]

Here is something I have seen happen in the past. If the previous owner of your house built the fence in the back, they may have put the fence entirely on what is now your property instead of down the property line. That could easily put your fence 6-12" inside your line. Later on the neighbor decides to pour the concrete but assuming the property line is your fence, they go all the way up to it. It is possible you own a few extra inches of concrete in your back yard.

 

[anderson750]

Send those last two photos to him and ask him if he really wants to continue... and if he does, he's responsible for the survey to verify.

even if you shift the line so the left sits on the fence, he still does not go all the way over to where the other side of the fence is.

 

[jeeper]

Those lines from google image wont even be close. Don't count on them.

You should have little nail pin heads in your concrete at the curb like DAA said.
I'll grab you exact lot line measurements that you can measure from the pins.

 

[jeeper]

Here are my pins, so you can see what I mean

 

[Kevin B.]

Isn't there something in the legal BS about losing the right to your property, if somebody else has been using it and nobody fought them on it or told them not to?

 

[The_Lobbster]

Isn't there something in the legal BS about losing the right to your property, if somebody else has been using it and nobody fought them on it or told them not to?

Yeah squatters rights crap. A guy in New York just lost an acreage over it because one of his neighbors had goats and a pen on the property for like 20 years. I’d be livid.

 

[jeeper]

Isn't there something in the legal BS about losing the right to your property, if somebody else has been using it and nobody fought them on it or told them not to?

Adverse Possession - propertyrights.utah.gov

Home/Find the Law/Legal Topics/Adverse PossessionAdverse PossessionNOTE: This summary is very simplified, and is provided for informational purposes. If you have questions on this topic in relation to a dispute with a local government or condemning entity, please contact The Office of the...

propertyrights.utah.gov

 

[johngottfredson]

Adverse possession is losing legal right to the property, pretty hard to get here in Utah. However, if you have had demonstrated use of the property for at least 20 years, you may have created a Prescriptive Easement. Meaning, even if it is indeed his property, he can’t keep you from using it.

If there are no property markers in your curb, just get a surveyor to mark it out. Solves so many headaches. Fence lines and concrete pours are rarely reliable. I would tell him he can’t build a fence without having it surveyed/staked to establish his legal ownership. That’s not a crazy ask when it could negatively impact your property if he gets it wrong by guessing.

 

[N-Smooth]

Yeah an actual plat map from the county recorder would be helpful but there really should be markers in your curb. The GIS overlays are notorious for being off so don’t pay any attention to that like @jeeper said.

Also, like @johngottfredson said, a survey may be the only way out of this. If you enter any type of legal dispute it’ll be required anyways…

 

[jeeper]

Here is what I meant in the message.




EDIT: NOT AN ATTORNEY< NOT A SURVEROR< MAKE STUFF UP ALL THE TIME< RARELY KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

I'd pay a surveyor and exhibit and exert property rights immediately. Daycare is everywhere, extending your lot is not.

@maveric, have any surveyors you use for engineering projects?

 

[johngottfredson]

Surveyors I’ve used. Chad is a personal friend.

Chad Anderson (801) 592-5975
James Frank (801) 380-6225
Alan DeMann (801) 707-1012

 

[Hickey]

Gimme your address and I’ll arrange for something large to back right the eff over those mailboxes.

 

[Hickey]

Ain’t no license plate on my tractor.

 

[UNSTUCK]

Shoot, one of you local guys just need to show up when you know the neighbor is home. Put on a high vis vest, grab a tape measure, some “maps”, maybe a gun scope on a tripod, and put some upside down paint markings on the ground wherever Coco wants them.

 

[N-Smooth]

Shoot, one of you local guys just need to show up when you know the neighbor is home. Put on a high vis vest, grab a tape measure, some “maps”, maybe a gun scope on a tripod, and put some upside down paint markings on the ground wherever Coco wants them.

I love it! Art Vandelay's Survey Service.

 

[jpndave]

I'll add to those that have said the satellite images/computer generated lines are obsoletely NOT official. They are close-ish to within whatever accuracy everything was put in. So basically useless. I have been down this road quite a while back with some apartments I built and a horrible neighbor trying to claim a bunch that wasn't his. Long story short, there was and extra 10ft of property after pulling from markers in two different directions. His surveyor said he had an extra 17ft (so 7ft of ours). We agreed to let him keep all the extra 10 but not the additional 7 of ours. He refused saying he was entitled to all 17ft. Our survey was close to correct his was not. What finally happened is the city backed off forcing us to put in a fence and we have continued on in "dispute" with the exact same property lines as what our surveyor said which also lines up with all the existing fences etc.

My advice is to be civil and try to come up with a workable solution. From the photos it looks like their mailbox is on the property line or what has been either formally or informally agreed upon to be the property line for decades which means a lot whether or not it was "surveyed" that way when originally subdivided from the farmers field or whatever it was prior to that. Originally markers are often rebar stakes with a plastic surveyors cap showing id corresponding to the survey. They can also be metal tags, t-posts, pins like @jeeper posted, etc. They are supposed to stay but often get burred or removed. You can try a metal detector or in depth searching to find the corners. Once you find one or two you can measure from there - if they still exist. Contractors then tried (if they were good/decent) to be as close to that as possible with the measuring tools they had at the time. Same goes for each owner since then. Some may have tried to be greedy and take more or whatever. You are where you are. I think there are provisions in the law that if a property line is used as such for like 17 years undisputed then it becomes the property line but don't have time to chase it down.

A survey has no legally binding impact. Though a judge would certainly take it as solid evidence to consider. Depending on the quality of the surveyor and what original pins they can find and where the pull from, can easily be different by say 17ft. The only way your force the situation is to go to court and fight which likely costs more than that new toy hauler and you likely would lose to what is already there. If you fight no one wins except for the attorneys. Ask me how I know about this... (mentally ill ex-wife not my choice to spend decades in court)

Talk to the neighbor, maybe offer to help cover half the fence if you can/want to and in exchange have some more say on what it is and where it lands. If you don't want to do that and can at least allow them to go forward they should put the fence on their side of the line. Another suggestion would be to see if they would be cool doing both mailboxes on the same pole (T-top), you building it so no effort on their part. Put it on THEIR mailbox location which buys you a foot or two of trailer clearance.

Two more examples, previous house neighbor wants to put in a fence between both houses. They didn't ask to pay any of it and we couldn't have at the time anyway, so free fence for us. The neighbor ask if they could set it on our side of the line as there was a concrete curb down the line (theirs BTW) and the fence would have been very difficult to put on that. We agreed that would be fine, cost us 4" of property for a free fence.

Last year we put in a fence with our current neighbor. We each paid half the cost and put it in together. Fence went through a power pole so we went back and forth to get the best solution. It ended up on their side so we got an extra 6" or so property as that worked out best. Could have gone the other way easy enough. That's best case, both agree and done. Fences make good neighbors.

Sorry for the novel, HTH