Mike, I tried to get back with you at the rally but you were pretty busy, so I talked to the Representative that was there. From what he told me it sounded like this passed the Senate with the changes you made, and an amendment that the frame height not be more than 29" from the ground. Is that correct?
SB 22 Need some Suggested Changes
- Thread starter utahmike
- Start date
The substitute bill (S.B. 22, 1st Sub) is the one that was passed at both the House and Senate on 6 Feb 09 and 10 Feb 09, respectively. It will soon be enrolled and become effective after the Governor signs it. The new bill restricts "UTVs" to exclude buggies that would have been legit under the previous passed bill (S.B. 181, 1st Sub); enrolled as S.B 181, 11 Mar 08, effective 1 Oct 08. Looks like full-size ORVs (buggies) owners have been left in the cold or forced to register as a "normal" street legal vehicle. But there is hope, as the Governor has yet to sign the bill into law. Or buggy owners quickly register your buggy under the effective law immediately. USA-ALL please use your "Magic/Networking Connections" to amend the bill to remove or change the restrictive nature of the bill's text; specifically see lines 325-330 and 395-398 of the substitute bill, that would exclude full-size ORV/buggies. Or better yet, I agree with Steve Jackson's recommendation to "kill" the bill, post #7, all together allowing the previously passed bill, S.B. 181, to remain in effect. I would hate for the hard work done last year to be wiped out in less than a years time, as the current bill has only been effective since 1 Oct 08. It seems the DHP "solution" has become Representative Noel's "solution" in the bill, modifying the bill's text to exclude buggies as type II ATVs. There are an infinite amount of solutions available to correct any problem(s) once the root cause has been identified, not just bending to DHP interpretation of the problem and recommended "solution."
Link to S.B. 22 1st Substitute attached for reference
http://le.utah.gov/~2009/bills/sbillint/sb0022s01.pdf
Eric
Link to S.B. 22 1st Substitute attached for reference
http://le.utah.gov/~2009/bills/sbillint/sb0022s01.pdf
Eric
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anderson750
I'm working on it Rose
- Location
- Price, Utah
It never hurts to communicate directly with them. You can give them first hand information as to why buggies should not be excluded. It takes more than just one voice to get things accopmlished.
utahmike
Lobbyist \ Consultant
- Location
- Salt Lake City, UT
At this point it would be almost impossible to kill the bill. You don't do that once it passes both houses. This bill was greased, we almost had it fixed...but I still have lingering questions. I have not been able to find one single person who has registered a full size vehicle as a street legal ATV. I would love to talk to that person. I would love to know why DPS \UHP claims even if we had left our amendments in full size vehicles would not have qualified due to other safety requirements. We need to look into this... I am positive we can correct this next session IF we can counter their claims. We will need the support of many not just one or two people. I have honestly heard personally from ONE person on this bill that being Bart. We also know that state agencies are already talking about a clean-up bill to improve definitions and fix inconsistencies in state code dealing with motorized vehicles. It may be a prime opportunity to correct this problem if what UHP has claimed is false.
scoutabout
None
It's only been in effect for 3 months, very few people even know about it.
I've looked through it as well as one other, as it is I don't see anything in there that would disqualify an OHV buggy from the street legal exceptions.
scoutabout said:
Will we see a strongly worded letter from USA-ALL to Jenkins and Noel about how the 100 4x4 users who showed up at the capitol last week aren't happy about potentially losing recreational opportunities based on this bill?
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scoutabout
None
Hmm.
Agreed.
How 'bout it, USA-All. Show us that you are not just an ATV / Dirt bike group. The 4x4 users need this one, what can you do to help?
utahmike
Lobbyist \ Consultant
- Location
- Salt Lake City, UT
You know this has been the weirdest bill ever for many reasons... I'm not happy with the process by which it moved. Others in the off-road community and even state government are not thrilled with a few changes it made either.
I'm happy to yank some chains over this...but I really need some ammo from you guys. Has ONE SINGLE person been able to register their vehicle as a street legal ATV that otherwise couldn’t have registered it as a motor vehicle? If so please call me. The reason that matters is if no one has; (or even could) what benefit are we losing by the change? I need to be able to show legislators that with the old law 4x4 folks had a big benefit, and with the new one they have taken that away. Just sending a mean letter void of facts won't get us anywhere in fact it will hurt our credibility with law makers. Credibility is important, case in point: We were able to get those amendments made and passed on pure political capitol that we have as a result of solid relationships and credibility. Those amendments didn’t last because we lacked the ammo to counter competing claims. I asked for help and received one single phone call. We need more than that. So if you care lets talk.
I will absolutely commit to working on fixing this bill if USA-ALL can get some support from those who care. What I mean by that is I need to have some questions answered by those who know what’s up, (i.e. some of you). I need info, I need case examples to support our claims, etc.
I would be happy to talk to anyone over the phone or arrange a meeting to discuss this bill and how to fix it. Let’s get together one evening and talk about how the old law was better for you than the new. Let’s get our facts together and develop a case we can present. I already have a commitment out of Representative Mike Noel that if we need to fix this next session he will sponsor the bill.
So we can write a letter if we can get answers to my questions but that won’t do much to actually change things. We can do more or better than write a letter, we can write a new law, but again I need your support. Don’t think writing on this forum constitutes “support” or getting involved because it doesn’t, I need folks like Bart who called me and showed up to the capitol and who was willing to meet with me and some legislators.
You have to get your hands dirty to make change. The ENITRE community has a problem with that. Complaining or offering opinion around a campfire, computer, internet forum, is a start but it alone will never accomplish much. Give me call we can show you how to really make a difference.
Let’s approach this rationally and professionally, if we do that we can make the changes we need.
801-830-9112
I'm happy to yank some chains over this...but I really need some ammo from you guys. Has ONE SINGLE person been able to register their vehicle as a street legal ATV that otherwise couldn’t have registered it as a motor vehicle? If so please call me. The reason that matters is if no one has; (or even could) what benefit are we losing by the change? I need to be able to show legislators that with the old law 4x4 folks had a big benefit, and with the new one they have taken that away. Just sending a mean letter void of facts won't get us anywhere in fact it will hurt our credibility with law makers. Credibility is important, case in point: We were able to get those amendments made and passed on pure political capitol that we have as a result of solid relationships and credibility. Those amendments didn’t last because we lacked the ammo to counter competing claims. I asked for help and received one single phone call. We need more than that. So if you care lets talk.
I will absolutely commit to working on fixing this bill if USA-ALL can get some support from those who care. What I mean by that is I need to have some questions answered by those who know what’s up, (i.e. some of you). I need info, I need case examples to support our claims, etc.
I would be happy to talk to anyone over the phone or arrange a meeting to discuss this bill and how to fix it. Let’s get together one evening and talk about how the old law was better for you than the new. Let’s get our facts together and develop a case we can present. I already have a commitment out of Representative Mike Noel that if we need to fix this next session he will sponsor the bill.
So we can write a letter if we can get answers to my questions but that won’t do much to actually change things. We can do more or better than write a letter, we can write a new law, but again I need your support. Don’t think writing on this forum constitutes “support” or getting involved because it doesn’t, I need folks like Bart who called me and showed up to the capitol and who was willing to meet with me and some legislators.
You have to get your hands dirty to make change. The ENITRE community has a problem with that. Complaining or offering opinion around a campfire, computer, internet forum, is a start but it alone will never accomplish much. Give me call we can show you how to really make a difference.
Let’s approach this rationally and professionally, if we do that we can make the changes we need.
801-830-9112
Bear T
Tacoma free since '93
- Location
- Boulder, mt
Mike, I have a truck that I would very much like to register as a street legal OHV. It is currently registered as just an ordinary OHV due to the fact that it doesn't fall into either of the 2 classes listed on the previous bill. It has working lights, turn signals, safety restraints, everything to become street legal, I could make a few changes and possibly make it legal for highway use again. However, thats not what I want, I don't want to have to put mud flaps, or fender flares, or remove some suspension lift, or put smaller tires on it.
If I understand correctly, nobody has been able to register a rig of our type as a street legal OHV because it has never been legal to do so. I think this is why its been so hard to find someone that has done it. Everyone has either made the changes needed to keep it fully street legal, or has just registered it as an OHV and trailered their rigs to the trail.
Can we get a full update on where we are at with the current bill? What are the requirements and limitations on a full size vehicle being registered as a street legal OHV?
If I understand correctly, nobody has been able to register a rig of our type as a street legal OHV because it has never been legal to do so. I think this is why its been so hard to find someone that has done it. Everyone has either made the changes needed to keep it fully street legal, or has just registered it as an OHV and trailered their rigs to the trail.
Can we get a full update on where we are at with the current bill? What are the requirements and limitations on a full size vehicle being registered as a street legal OHV?
Bear T
Tacoma free since '93
- Location
- Boulder, mt
Does this mean that the USA-All meetings are now open to the public? I have wanted to attend a meeting to see what your organization is all about, but I have been told that the public is not allowed to attend, that they are "closed door" meetings.
utahmike
Lobbyist \ Consultant
- Location
- Salt Lake City, UT
Crawlinbear...All valid points. I am a little puzzled why UHP\DPS has been SO against this...it may stem from opposition to the bill last year. I would like to work with people who are ready to register their vehicles as a street legal ATV this year...we have until July to do so even if this bill passes...and it is likely it will.
This bill has not taken a "routine" path to passage. One look at the bill history can tell you that. I expect to find more details in the morning, but for now what I can tell you is it passed the senate was sent to the house, we\Rep Mike Noel amended it per our suggestion, Because it was amended in the house it had to go back to the senate to reconsider, the senate said, "don't even send it to us like that", the house recalled it, took out our amendments, passed it again and sent it to the senate for reconsideration. Here is where it gets pretty fuzzy, it appears as though the senate rejected it again and then passed it. To further complicate things, now the bill is in what is known as "Conference" which is where a bill goes when both hoses have passed a bill but cannot agree on amendments, the purpose of the conference is to have 3 legislators from each house work out a compromise on the bill.
There may be a slight chance we can do something here. This is what I hope to find out tommorrow. Based on previous discussions with the senate sponsor I wouldn't hold my breath for anything. But for now that is where the bill is, I expect it to pass, but I am hopeful it won't. If there is anything we can do to fix the bill I will let everyone know ASAP.
This bill has not taken a "routine" path to passage. One look at the bill history can tell you that. I expect to find more details in the morning, but for now what I can tell you is it passed the senate was sent to the house, we\Rep Mike Noel amended it per our suggestion, Because it was amended in the house it had to go back to the senate to reconsider, the senate said, "don't even send it to us like that", the house recalled it, took out our amendments, passed it again and sent it to the senate for reconsideration. Here is where it gets pretty fuzzy, it appears as though the senate rejected it again and then passed it. To further complicate things, now the bill is in what is known as "Conference" which is where a bill goes when both hoses have passed a bill but cannot agree on amendments, the purpose of the conference is to have 3 legislators from each house work out a compromise on the bill.
There may be a slight chance we can do something here. This is what I hope to find out tommorrow. Based on previous discussions with the senate sponsor I wouldn't hold my breath for anything. But for now that is where the bill is, I expect it to pass, but I am hopeful it won't. If there is anything we can do to fix the bill I will let everyone know ASAP.
utahmike
Lobbyist \ Consultant
- Location
- Salt Lake City, UT
If you go to our website you can sign up for USA-ALL emails when you do this you can subscribe to certain lists including a USA-ALL meeting invitation list. We send those notices out at least once a month. We have had a number of visitors over the last few months.
I don't know if you are getting our email alerts but our meetings are not closed door meetings, nor have they ever been. We do like to know who is coming and we do screen people, imagine if some SUWA mole tried to come to our meetings. We also may excuse visitors when we are discussing sensitive legal issues. The rumor you heard was perpetuated by those who had problems with USA-ALL and became hostile to our organization. When USA-ALL imploded beginning in March or April of 2007 and for a good year thereafter we were understandably extra cautious about whom we let in. That is when the disinformation really propagated.
With that all behind us we are more welcoming of visitors. But we still do like to talk to you or even meet you first. Many of visitors have been "sponsored" by another board member or trusted member. There are still those who would seek to harm us such as SUWA faithful and others. So our doors are open to friendly or curious visitors always, but we like to see a little grease under the finger nails if you know what I mean.
Let's meet one afternoon swap some stories and I'm sure you would be welcome at our next meeting.
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I talked to Mike on the phone for a while this evening (Thanks, Mike!). He really needs some ammo to help get this bill changed so we can register our rigs as street legal OHVs. Please, if you or someone you know has registered or attempted to register your rig in this way, call Mike and talk to him.
I for one would really like to be able to register my rig as a street legal OHV. I have been able to get it through inspection so far, but it is getting harder every year, and I know that will soon end. I don't want to have to trailer my rig 1 1/2 miles from my house to the trailhead, and most loop trails would be impossible. There must be others out there like me. Lets get together and give Mike the help he needs. If we fail this year, maybe we can win next time.
I for one would really like to be able to register my rig as a street legal OHV. I have been able to get it through inspection so far, but it is getting harder every year, and I know that will soon end. I don't want to have to trailer my rig 1 1/2 miles from my house to the trailhead, and most loop trails would be impossible. There must be others out there like me. Lets get together and give Mike the help he needs. If we fail this year, maybe we can win next time.
utahmike
Lobbyist \ Consultant
- Location
- Salt Lake City, UT
Jeff,
It was GREAT to talk to you. After I spoke with you I called Rep Noel to discuss another issue. I brought up SB 22. He told me it was going to conference over a disagreement having something to do with tire size. He felt it would be unlikely to change the bill as we need it, BUT he again expressed his commitment to fix the bill next session. I reiterated the concern by the community; he is in favor of helping us fix things. I would submit we form a working group of interested users, clubs, and associations to tackle the issue, write our own fixes and then run it through the legislative process. I will commit USA-ALL's resources to getting this done.
I will still be looking further into things in the morning to see what if anything we can do while this is in conference, but chances are slim to none.
IF ANYONE HAS A RIG that is ready or can be ready for inspection for street legal ATV registration before July, PLEASE contact me. I want to be involved with you in that process. I even want to go with you to the actual inspection. I need to really understand what is going on so I can help make a strong case for allowing this type of vehicle to be registered as a street legal ATV.
It was GREAT to talk to you. After I spoke with you I called Rep Noel to discuss another issue. I brought up SB 22. He told me it was going to conference over a disagreement having something to do with tire size. He felt it would be unlikely to change the bill as we need it, BUT he again expressed his commitment to fix the bill next session. I reiterated the concern by the community; he is in favor of helping us fix things. I would submit we form a working group of interested users, clubs, and associations to tackle the issue, write our own fixes and then run it through the legislative process. I will commit USA-ALL's resources to getting this done.
I will still be looking further into things in the morning to see what if anything we can do while this is in conference, but chances are slim to none.
IF ANYONE HAS A RIG that is ready or can be ready for inspection for street legal ATV registration before July, PLEASE contact me. I want to be involved with you in that process. I even want to go with you to the actual inspection. I need to really understand what is going on so I can help make a strong case for allowing this type of vehicle to be registered as a street legal ATV.
I plan on being ready in about 3 weeks to go through the process. Part of the problem is I don't even know where to get it inspected or how to start the process. I think this is such a new concept that the procedure hasn't been worked out? Do I start with the DMV or go to the dreaded (shudder) UHP?
A couple more questions. I don't see any language in the current law about DOT approved tires and wheels. Most beadlocks are generally not considered DOT approved, although this is debatable. Are ATV tires and wheels DOT approved? Would this keep us from passing safety inspection?
Also, what size are the street legal ATV plates. I have to build a spot for them with a light and don't really want to do it for a full sized plate, unless that is correct size.
Also, what size are the street legal ATV plates. I have to build a spot for them with a light and don't really want to do it for a full sized plate, unless that is correct size.
Corban_White
Well-Known Member
- Location
- Payson, AZ
No.
I don't have any knowledge here but I would guess that they are the same size as a motorcycle plate.
Didn't think so, so that should be the same for us.
Cool, I am hoping for that. It fits on my tail gate better. :greg: