311WJ
Active Member
- Location
- Spanish Fork
Still going! Those who came out, Thank You!
Snowbird expansion in Mineral Basin
- Thread starter Kevin B.
- Start date
- Location
- Stinkwater
Three guys so far have spoken in favor - one corporate stooge and two ski bums. Everybody else is hammering Snowbird.
:tara::tara::tara::tara:
It ended in a continuance to the next meeting with 3 items to be resolved. First, the water and what tests they could do to assure American Fork and surrounding communities that the expansion wouldn't impact the system. Snowbird agreed to every test and stipulation proposed by those representatives. Second, cellular service, and Snowbird agreed that it would address it. Third, and most important to this forum, access to existing roads. There was some discussion about the types of roads that were there and Big Sarge brought up RS2477 rights which none of the council or legal representation were familiar with. In the end Snowbird said they would leave the roads open and even mentioned that they would remove the gate in Mineral Basin.
In the end it seemed like Snowbird had their proverbial ducks in a row, they actually own 98% of the land in question, with intentions of purchasing the last parcel. They had done EPA and water studies and evaluations and they were willing to accommodate every mitigating circumstance. From the tone of the council, my guess is they will approve the adjustments and Snowbird will move on to the next phase of the proposed expansion. You can pretty much kiss the existing Mary Ellen Gulch and Mineral basin goodbye, which is very sad.
In the end it seemed like Snowbird had their proverbial ducks in a row, they actually own 98% of the land in question, with intentions of purchasing the last parcel. They had done EPA and water studies and evaluations and they were willing to accommodate every mitigating circumstance. From the tone of the council, my guess is they will approve the adjustments and Snowbird will move on to the next phase of the proposed expansion. You can pretty much kiss the existing Mary Ellen Gulch and Mineral basin goodbye, which is very sad.
- Location
- Bountiful, land of rocks
I wouldn't be surprised to see Snowbird be accommodating to access in the early going. Then some putz will park a rig with a tire "flexed" on a ski lift pole or an ATV guy will climb up on a building or deck or something and they'll shut access down to protect their private property
- Location
- Grand Junction, CO
Thanks for all that attended this latest meeting and showed up for the access crowd! I love AF Canyon, but I'm not close enough to show up to the meetings, so I appreciate all that have taken the time to do so.
mombobuggy
Well-Known Member
- Location
- Highland
It looks like the only hope of preventing this mess will be if the Attorney general decides that there is a problem with Bribery. Bob bonar seems like he is used to getting his way about most things. I left mad. This is about more than just access we could potentially have the Water supply for north Utah county ruined I cant believe anyone thinks that it is a good idea to start a construction project in the middle of a Tailings disaster area that was almost an E.P.A. superfund site like Tintic.
jentzschman
Well-Known Member
- Location
- Sandy, Utah
I am so sad about all this. So many people have worked so very hard to prevent the perversion of AF canyon by the money grabbing, greedy Snowbird corporation. I am sick of big corporations doing what ever the hell they want. They say they care about land, public access, blah blah blah. They only care about one thing and one thing only, money. They do not care about being good stewards of the land. They do not care about public access. They do not care about the beauty and peace places like AF afford. No. They only want to do whatever it takes to get more of the all mighty dollar. Screw public lands use. Screw responsible recreational land use. Screw solitude and peace open areas like this offer. Screw what actual users of the canyon say or what surrounding community leaders say. They say and do whatever it takes so they can get what they want.
There will no doubt be some on here who support what they are trying to do and even high ranking persons in the Snowbird organization that see this post. Good. I hope you know how pissed off a great many people are. Your talk is nothing more then platitudes, and in the end could care less what the public thinks so long as you get your way.
I understand most of the property is your land, but you do not (or at some point did not) own enough to fully develop it, hence your secret, manipulative, and private meetings to swap what lands you do own in other canyons for the land the BLM and forest service own in AF so you will be able to have full property rights. This above all, proves without a doubt what your true intentions have been from day one.
I hope it takes another 20 years or more for anything to be approved so we can enjoy all the American Fork Canyon has to offer before it gets rapped and plundered by your greed.
There will no doubt be some on here who support what they are trying to do and even high ranking persons in the Snowbird organization that see this post. Good. I hope you know how pissed off a great many people are. Your talk is nothing more then platitudes, and in the end could care less what the public thinks so long as you get your way.
I understand most of the property is your land, but you do not (or at some point did not) own enough to fully develop it, hence your secret, manipulative, and private meetings to swap what lands you do own in other canyons for the land the BLM and forest service own in AF so you will be able to have full property rights. This above all, proves without a doubt what your true intentions have been from day one.
I hope it takes another 20 years or more for anything to be approved so we can enjoy all the American Fork Canyon has to offer before it gets rapped and plundered by your greed.
- Location
- Sandy, Ut
Thanks to all those that made it to the BOA meeting, to those that voiced their opinion and to those there to loudly applaud those points. While a simple "deny" was the outcome we all had wished for, the County BOA decided to "continue" the discussion at their meeting next month which is isn't a win but certainly isn't a loss either. We now have a month to actual review the "secret" Snowbird documents and regroup.
Much consideration needs to be given to what these roads will look like if/when we are allowed future access. They (SB) will be driving a porta-potty truck from Little Cottonwood up over the canyon on their new road into Mary Ellen Gulch (via a new road built partially on PUBLIC land), that truck will drive all the way from the top ridges of Mary Ellen to their new ski-lift house/warming hut at a a location below the Live Yankee Mine tailings, i.e. it's going to become a 2WD route from that point up to their new connection at the Silver Bell. Add the fact you'll be competing with hikers and mountain bikers using the lifts as entry points and worse yet, a zip-line zooming over your head. Sound like something you had in mind for that day out of the city? Oh, and remember that odd BOA member that insisted cell phone coverage be part of Snowbirds plans in AF Canyon? So you can still play on FB while you're driving.
We don't quite know what impacts this will have on Mineral Basin other than to make it shorter than it is by approx. 1/2 mile. I'd love to have more resolute answers on this stuff but we are getting legal roadblocks from Snowbird's council on accessing info (remember we were given the info just 24 hours before the meeting despite Snowbird submitting it a month earlier). Along with that the Forest Service brass hasn't been forthcoming, we learned just last night that some of their new road was in fact build on public land, anyone here get asked to comment about that? We have a half dozen user groups (4x4 clubs) working with the FS on projects in the canyon including formal trail adoption of the Mary Ellen Gulch Trail (Lone Peak 4-Wheelers) and yet they didn't think to give us a heads up about building a road on public land that would let Snowbird drive a porta-potty pumper in. Those concerns are being addressed with those parties and with the many elected officials that are working towards our cause. We were on calls last night until 3AM discussing various options and discovering additional layers of issues with this proposal. The BOA committees worries about road access and water quality are absolutely warranted given the fact these new lifts will be on, over and around flooded mine tailings that nearly qualified for an EPA Superfund site.
Much was made of the fact that this is "private property". But neighboring parcel owners don't want a variance granted including the public at large which is the largest neighboring land owner. Additionally, all construction access will come via our public land, they use our public land for avalanche control and our public road right-of-way is absolutely affected. This is absolutely beyond a public land issue!
Much consideration needs to be given to what these roads will look like if/when we are allowed future access. They (SB) will be driving a porta-potty truck from Little Cottonwood up over the canyon on their new road into Mary Ellen Gulch (via a new road built partially on PUBLIC land), that truck will drive all the way from the top ridges of Mary Ellen to their new ski-lift house/warming hut at a a location below the Live Yankee Mine tailings, i.e. it's going to become a 2WD route from that point up to their new connection at the Silver Bell. Add the fact you'll be competing with hikers and mountain bikers using the lifts as entry points and worse yet, a zip-line zooming over your head. Sound like something you had in mind for that day out of the city? Oh, and remember that odd BOA member that insisted cell phone coverage be part of Snowbirds plans in AF Canyon? So you can still play on FB while you're driving.
We don't quite know what impacts this will have on Mineral Basin other than to make it shorter than it is by approx. 1/2 mile. I'd love to have more resolute answers on this stuff but we are getting legal roadblocks from Snowbird's council on accessing info (remember we were given the info just 24 hours before the meeting despite Snowbird submitting it a month earlier). Along with that the Forest Service brass hasn't been forthcoming, we learned just last night that some of their new road was in fact build on public land, anyone here get asked to comment about that? We have a half dozen user groups (4x4 clubs) working with the FS on projects in the canyon including formal trail adoption of the Mary Ellen Gulch Trail (Lone Peak 4-Wheelers) and yet they didn't think to give us a heads up about building a road on public land that would let Snowbird drive a porta-potty pumper in. Those concerns are being addressed with those parties and with the many elected officials that are working towards our cause. We were on calls last night until 3AM discussing various options and discovering additional layers of issues with this proposal. The BOA committees worries about road access and water quality are absolutely warranted given the fact these new lifts will be on, over and around flooded mine tailings that nearly qualified for an EPA Superfund site.
Much was made of the fact that this is "private property". But neighboring parcel owners don't want a variance granted including the public at large which is the largest neighboring land owner. Additionally, all construction access will come via our public land, they use our public land for avalanche control and our public road right-of-way is absolutely affected. This is absolutely beyond a public land issue!
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Tonkaman
Well-Known Member
- Location
- West Jordan
That's great progress Kurt! Thanks for really putting yourself into the middle of this conflict. We all are in your debt for how much you've done in this battle.
Johnny Quest
Web Wheeler
- Location
- West Jordan
did anyone make it to the meeting this morning? howd it go?
This was on the protect AF FB page
At todays County Commission meeting I asked Bob Bonar how he proposes to protect snow machines using public roads and historic easements from downhill skiers, after all its a motorized right of way. He would not answer me, turned his back on me and sat down. So.. I went out to the hall to talk to another one on his team. Bob saw this, followed out and said.. to his associate who could not answer the question either... "Don't talk to Mark, you can talk to anyone else but not Mark.." to that I suggested another member of our team ask the question, and I stepped away.
Bob Bonar knows he can't operate a ski resort expansion if he has to clean up the mine tailings and mill sites. He does not have enough money to do that and he won't assume the risk to the public. He wants the county or FS to be on the hook for his points of pollution.
2. Bob Bonar knows that 71% of his property has public right of ways, roads, trails, and that 100% of his lands have been used for the past 100 years as public rights of way, many skiers, snowmobilers, hikers, campers- have not followed trails, but have gone off trail. He will need to disregard public right of ways to orchestrate his plan.
3. Bob Bonar does not want open public processes. Does not want EPA to provide a clean bill of health and Bob falls back on reports done 40-50 years ago. Snowbird should pay for a neutral third party to remove all the hazardous waste, to identify all mill sites and then they should post all their lands - public roads stay open, and devise a plan how their skiers won't cross over public access.
Bob- it would be a good idea for you to respect the concerns of many elected officials, to stop trying to do deals behind closed doors and to engage an open public process as you noted at Fox Hollow.
Bob- take this through the front door. Only a coward would try and slip this via the Board of Adjustments and disregard the wishes and concerns of tens of thousands.
Bob, indemnify the Forest Service and Utah County in the event your mill sites or tailings create havoc - lay your whole company on the line.. grow a pair. Love Mark
At todays County Commission meeting I asked Bob Bonar how he proposes to protect snow machines using public roads and historic easements from downhill skiers, after all its a motorized right of way. He would not answer me, turned his back on me and sat down. So.. I went out to the hall to talk to another one on his team. Bob saw this, followed out and said.. to his associate who could not answer the question either... "Don't talk to Mark, you can talk to anyone else but not Mark.." to that I suggested another member of our team ask the question, and I stepped away.
Bob Bonar knows he can't operate a ski resort expansion if he has to clean up the mine tailings and mill sites. He does not have enough money to do that and he won't assume the risk to the public. He wants the county or FS to be on the hook for his points of pollution.
2. Bob Bonar knows that 71% of his property has public right of ways, roads, trails, and that 100% of his lands have been used for the past 100 years as public rights of way, many skiers, snowmobilers, hikers, campers- have not followed trails, but have gone off trail. He will need to disregard public right of ways to orchestrate his plan.
3. Bob Bonar does not want open public processes. Does not want EPA to provide a clean bill of health and Bob falls back on reports done 40-50 years ago. Snowbird should pay for a neutral third party to remove all the hazardous waste, to identify all mill sites and then they should post all their lands - public roads stay open, and devise a plan how their skiers won't cross over public access.
Bob- it would be a good idea for you to respect the concerns of many elected officials, to stop trying to do deals behind closed doors and to engage an open public process as you noted at Fox Hollow.
Bob- take this through the front door. Only a coward would try and slip this via the Board of Adjustments and disregard the wishes and concerns of tens of thousands.
Bob, indemnify the Forest Service and Utah County in the event your mill sites or tailings create havoc - lay your whole company on the line.. grow a pair. Love Mark
- Location
- Sandy, Ut
I was there and presented to the commissioners. I'll write an update.
- Location
- Sandy, Ut
Sorry I haven't updated as much here as I would have liked. I've likely sat through 20 hours of meetings re: AFC in the last month and spent double that on calls and researching stuff the last few months, by the time I call it quits I'm too spent to document much.
The BOA will meet again Feb 4th to hear Snowbirds answers to their permit application issues, given the weak discourse from the BOA members at the last meeting, I don't have high hopes. We've met with the County Road Specialist, GIS specialist, FS head ranger, etc this last month and found that they roads do have historic access and right-of-way protection. But, none of them are putting a foot down about Snowbirds plans to close those routes in the winter and potentially limit or close access in the summer. The 4x4 users have a pretty easy claim to our ROW protection and Snowbird to their credit has been accepting of this. I'd like to think I maintain a cordial relationship with some of Snowbirds employees in this matter and I hope to keep it that way, they are doing their job and looking out for their best interests, I'd like to think I'm looking out for the best interests of the motorized community. I've been in contact with the U4WDA, Utah ATV Association, Utah Trail Machine Association, Utah Gold Prospectors Association, Utah Public Land Association, Utah Snowmobile Association, as well as a dozen + 4x4 clubs, all our supportive of protecting our right of way access.
What we have found through this process, is that Snowbird's plans for AFC are not new and they absolutely planned and still have their eye on a gondola to Tibble Fork. While they may have backed of that now... they still are leaving it out there for the future and given their track record of piece by piece expansion including zoning changes, land purchases, wining and dining commissioners and BOA members on trips to Switzerland, campaign contributions, etc... well, it's easy to see how we got into this mess. I do know that if I was a Cedar Hills or Utah County resident, I would be lighting up the phone lines to tell Mayor Gygi of Cedar Hills and Commissioner Ellertson of Utah County how unethical it was for them to be involved in the decision making for private groups that were influencing them with trips, tickets and favors. The Utah Attorney Generals office is investigating these undue influences.
Check out Snowbirds research on the Tibble Fork to Mary Ellen Gulch Gondola
https://www.facebook.com/ProtectAmericanForkCanyon/posts/1682105238741854
Oh, and remember that AFCVision project that was supposed to collect unbiased information on what canyon visitors wanted? A recent GRAMA request just unleashed this gem which I feel was proof of leading questions. I met with Buck early in the process and found him to be a nice gent but after reading these recently disclosed discussions, I'm glad AFCVision has been put on hold.
Check this out
The BOA will meet again Feb 4th to hear Snowbirds answers to their permit application issues, given the weak discourse from the BOA members at the last meeting, I don't have high hopes. We've met with the County Road Specialist, GIS specialist, FS head ranger, etc this last month and found that they roads do have historic access and right-of-way protection. But, none of them are putting a foot down about Snowbirds plans to close those routes in the winter and potentially limit or close access in the summer. The 4x4 users have a pretty easy claim to our ROW protection and Snowbird to their credit has been accepting of this. I'd like to think I maintain a cordial relationship with some of Snowbirds employees in this matter and I hope to keep it that way, they are doing their job and looking out for their best interests, I'd like to think I'm looking out for the best interests of the motorized community. I've been in contact with the U4WDA, Utah ATV Association, Utah Trail Machine Association, Utah Gold Prospectors Association, Utah Public Land Association, Utah Snowmobile Association, as well as a dozen + 4x4 clubs, all our supportive of protecting our right of way access.
What we have found through this process, is that Snowbird's plans for AFC are not new and they absolutely planned and still have their eye on a gondola to Tibble Fork. While they may have backed of that now... they still are leaving it out there for the future and given their track record of piece by piece expansion including zoning changes, land purchases, wining and dining commissioners and BOA members on trips to Switzerland, campaign contributions, etc... well, it's easy to see how we got into this mess. I do know that if I was a Cedar Hills or Utah County resident, I would be lighting up the phone lines to tell Mayor Gygi of Cedar Hills and Commissioner Ellertson of Utah County how unethical it was for them to be involved in the decision making for private groups that were influencing them with trips, tickets and favors. The Utah Attorney Generals office is investigating these undue influences.
Check out Snowbirds research on the Tibble Fork to Mary Ellen Gulch Gondola
https://www.facebook.com/ProtectAmericanForkCanyon/posts/1682105238741854
Oh, and remember that AFCVision project that was supposed to collect unbiased information on what canyon visitors wanted? A recent GRAMA request just unleashed this gem which I feel was proof of leading questions. I met with Buck early in the process and found him to be a nice gent but after reading these recently disclosed discussions, I'm glad AFCVision has been put on hold.
Check this out
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Johnny Quest
Web Wheeler
- Location
- West Jordan
so its nothing but a bunch of shady business going on, and theyre most likely going to get away with it?
Jesser04
Well-Known Member
- Location
- Kaysville Utah
does this surprise you?
Johnny Quest
Web Wheeler
- Location
- West Jordan
not in the least.
i guess my questions from here is what are the possible outcomes from this point forward?
i guess my questions from here is what are the possible outcomes from this point forward?
Johnny Quest
Web Wheeler
- Location
- West Jordan
i think hes a little tied up at the moment...