So, gas people....anyone thinking about ethanol?
- Thread starter Brett
- Start date
waynehartwig said:
They actually have a way to make it on a large scale from pretty much any vegatation now. The parts of crops that are basically waste can be turned into fuel. They use a fungus (discovered during WWII on a pacific island when cloth uniforms and other things started to disintigrate) that contains enzimes that can break the complex starches down to sugar that can be fermented. The only operating plant of its kind is is Canada, but it is operating and with prices where they are now you will see more.
RockMonkey
Suddenly Enthusiastic
Very cool. I'm not convinced these high gas prices are a bad thing. High prices are going to cause innovation like this. It would be great for our economy if we could divert all that money that is going to the middle-east to buy oil, and instead send it to american farmers to grow our own energy.bobdog said:
waynehartwig
www.jeeperman.com
- Location
- Mead, WA
True... I know they can make it out of sugar, too. But the problem is, sugar is also a farmed commodity.
I would just hate to see all people pour tons of money into this, and then not be able to use it - all the while raising costs on food.
I would just hate to see all people pour tons of money into this, and then not be able to use it - all the while raising costs on food.
RockMonkey
Suddenly Enthusiastic
Thanks Cory. That was a very good read.Cory said:
1993yj said:
I read a similar article and the impression I received was that it cost car manufactures an extra $200 to build a flex car. I did not see anything that said you could retro-fit an existing car for $200. Where they sell ethanol is not a big deal if you have a flex car because it runs on both ethanol and gas. You do not need to pick only one, you can swith back and forth anytime based on price and availablility.
bobmed
- - - -
- Location
- sugarliberty
The availability is the big problem right now.
www.e85fuel.com
www.e85fuel.com
Last edited:
waynehartwig said:
You don't need corn to make ethanol, you can use prairie grass. Brazil is 100% off of foreign oil with the use of ethanol. I saw an episode of 48 hours where they said they could easily make ethanol available to everyone in the US for less than a buck a gallon w/in 5 years. The major hold up is current oil companies……
Greg said:
2 weeks ago my brother-in-law and I converted my father-in-laws newer diesel golf to run on vegetable oil. We used a kit from www.greasecar.com. All I can say is that it wasn't that hard of a conversion and it works fantastic. He hasn't seen any reduction in mileage and the vegetable oil is free. Technically a tank of diesel could last him between 1500 and 1800 miles.
We are thinking about getting an older cummins to work on next.
The most difficult thing is getting the vegetable oil from restaraunts, filtering it, etc...although it hasn't seem to bother them yet.
this was kind of recent, waiting for me in my inbox.
link to story.
clock Jun 3, 2006 1:05 pm US/Mountain
Ethanol Grabs Nation's Attention
(AP) COON RAPIDS, Iowa A tractor trailer rig rumbles into the Tall Corn Ethanol plant. Corn pours from openings in its belly to bins underground, where conveyor belts and buckets haul it to gleaming steel silos rising 13 stories above the Iowa plains.
The 40-acre distillery turns corn into alcohol in quantities that would make a moonshiner drool. Instead of white lightnin', the brew is converted to ethanol, a fuel that makes money for farmers and is seen as a possible solution to today's high oil and gas prices.
Like the other modern-day stills dotting the Midwestern landscape, the Coon Rapids plant reached capacity soon after opening -- within 12 days, to be precise.
Ethanol production in the United States is growing so quickly that for the first time, farmers expect to sell as much corn this year to ethanol plants as they do overseas.
"It's the most stunning development in agricultural markets today -- I can't think of anything else quite like this," says Keith Collins, the U.S. Agriculture Department's chief economist.
The amount of corn used for ethanol, estimated at 2.15 billion bushels this year, would amount to about 20 percent of the nation's entire crop, according to department projections.
Even as ethanol devours corn and pushes prices higher, the president and Congress are calling for even greater ethanol use. Wall Street cannot seem to get enough of ethanol-related investments. Automakers are speeding ethanol-capable vehicles onto the road.
Yet the ethanol industry is not without its critics, who question whether tax incentives provided by Congress are really needed.
The enthusiasm for ethanol makes farmer Lynn Phillips want to grow more corn. Phillips helped raise the money for the farmer-owned Tall Corn plant, which opened in 2002 as a way to make more money by processing every kernel of locally grown corn.
"We saw train cars after train cars of raw material being shipped away and value being added somewhere else," said Phillips. Now, the corn "is still going out on train cars -- it's just going out in the form of ethanol and distillers' grain."
Corn can cost more to grow because it needs heavy applications of fertilizer. Right now, Phillips plants corn on about half his 2,000 acres and soybeans on the rest.
Inside the ethanol plant, corn is ground and mixed with water to make mash. It is heated and mixed with enzymes to convert starch into sugar and fermented with yeast to make alcohol -- just like making moonshine. Hanging in the air around the 500,000-gallon fermenting tanks is the smell of sweet, white wine.
The mixture is kept just below 90 degrees Fahrenheit. Yeast seem happier below that temperature, general manager Owen Shunkwiler hollers over the hum. Shunkwiler works for South Dakota-based Broin Companies, which invested in Tall Corn and is responsible for its operations.
After fermentation, the mixture is boiled to remove water, then dehydrated to boost the alcohol content. Before leaving the plant, a denaturant, or poison, is added to make the alcohol unfit for drinking. Then the ethanol is ready for shipping to fuel storage terminals that will blend it with gasoline as it goes into trucks for distribution to gas stations.
Also yielded in the process is livestock feed. Corn kernels minus the starch are left over -- think South Beach for cows. Every 56-pound bushel makes about 17.4 pounds of grain feed, according to the Agriculture Department.
Tall Corn produces 150,000 gallons of ethanol each day, enough to power an estimated 272 cars for an entire year if they ran on ethanol alone.
But automobiles do not run on pure ethanol. Instead, ethanol is combined with unleaded gasoline to boost its octane rating and reduce emissions.
The most common blends are 10 percent ethanol, approved for any make or model sold in the U.S., or 85 percent ethanol, known as E-85 and used in specially made flexible fuel vehicles. About 5 million vehicles in the U.S. can run on E-85; more are in production.
In Iowa in April, regular unleaded gasoline was selling for $2.71, E-10 for $2.65 and E-85 for $2.33.
With demand comes expansion. In Iowa alone, three new ethanol plants opened last month. The industry likely will outpace a mandate from Congress to pump out 7.5 billion gallons a year by 2012, according to Collins.
Meanwhile, lawmakers envision vastly more ethanol in the nation's automobiles. Sens. Tom Harkin, D-Iowa, and Richard Lugar, R-Ind., are pushing to require 60 billion gallons of ethanol and soy-based biodiesel by 2030.
An expansion that big would require sources for ethanol besides corn. Ethanol is made from sugar cane in Brazil, which meets about half its fuel demand with ethanol. Sorghum, another feed grain, accounts for about 3 percent of U.S. ethanol, according to the Agriculture Department.
Research is under way on other potential sources, such wood fibers and residue from crop harvesting.
The big question is whether oil and gas will remain expensive.
"When the price of anything gets high enough, then all kinds of substitutes come out of the closet," Collins said. "That's what's going on now. As long as the price of oil stays high, where ethanol is profitable, this industry is going to keep growing."
link to story.
clock Jun 3, 2006 1:05 pm US/Mountain
Ethanol Grabs Nation's Attention
(AP) COON RAPIDS, Iowa A tractor trailer rig rumbles into the Tall Corn Ethanol plant. Corn pours from openings in its belly to bins underground, where conveyor belts and buckets haul it to gleaming steel silos rising 13 stories above the Iowa plains.
The 40-acre distillery turns corn into alcohol in quantities that would make a moonshiner drool. Instead of white lightnin', the brew is converted to ethanol, a fuel that makes money for farmers and is seen as a possible solution to today's high oil and gas prices.
Like the other modern-day stills dotting the Midwestern landscape, the Coon Rapids plant reached capacity soon after opening -- within 12 days, to be precise.
Ethanol production in the United States is growing so quickly that for the first time, farmers expect to sell as much corn this year to ethanol plants as they do overseas.
"It's the most stunning development in agricultural markets today -- I can't think of anything else quite like this," says Keith Collins, the U.S. Agriculture Department's chief economist.
The amount of corn used for ethanol, estimated at 2.15 billion bushels this year, would amount to about 20 percent of the nation's entire crop, according to department projections.
Even as ethanol devours corn and pushes prices higher, the president and Congress are calling for even greater ethanol use. Wall Street cannot seem to get enough of ethanol-related investments. Automakers are speeding ethanol-capable vehicles onto the road.
Yet the ethanol industry is not without its critics, who question whether tax incentives provided by Congress are really needed.
The enthusiasm for ethanol makes farmer Lynn Phillips want to grow more corn. Phillips helped raise the money for the farmer-owned Tall Corn plant, which opened in 2002 as a way to make more money by processing every kernel of locally grown corn.
"We saw train cars after train cars of raw material being shipped away and value being added somewhere else," said Phillips. Now, the corn "is still going out on train cars -- it's just going out in the form of ethanol and distillers' grain."
Corn can cost more to grow because it needs heavy applications of fertilizer. Right now, Phillips plants corn on about half his 2,000 acres and soybeans on the rest.
Inside the ethanol plant, corn is ground and mixed with water to make mash. It is heated and mixed with enzymes to convert starch into sugar and fermented with yeast to make alcohol -- just like making moonshine. Hanging in the air around the 500,000-gallon fermenting tanks is the smell of sweet, white wine.
The mixture is kept just below 90 degrees Fahrenheit. Yeast seem happier below that temperature, general manager Owen Shunkwiler hollers over the hum. Shunkwiler works for South Dakota-based Broin Companies, which invested in Tall Corn and is responsible for its operations.
After fermentation, the mixture is boiled to remove water, then dehydrated to boost the alcohol content. Before leaving the plant, a denaturant, or poison, is added to make the alcohol unfit for drinking. Then the ethanol is ready for shipping to fuel storage terminals that will blend it with gasoline as it goes into trucks for distribution to gas stations.
Also yielded in the process is livestock feed. Corn kernels minus the starch are left over -- think South Beach for cows. Every 56-pound bushel makes about 17.4 pounds of grain feed, according to the Agriculture Department.
Tall Corn produces 150,000 gallons of ethanol each day, enough to power an estimated 272 cars for an entire year if they ran on ethanol alone.
But automobiles do not run on pure ethanol. Instead, ethanol is combined with unleaded gasoline to boost its octane rating and reduce emissions.
The most common blends are 10 percent ethanol, approved for any make or model sold in the U.S., or 85 percent ethanol, known as E-85 and used in specially made flexible fuel vehicles. About 5 million vehicles in the U.S. can run on E-85; more are in production.
In Iowa in April, regular unleaded gasoline was selling for $2.71, E-10 for $2.65 and E-85 for $2.33.
With demand comes expansion. In Iowa alone, three new ethanol plants opened last month. The industry likely will outpace a mandate from Congress to pump out 7.5 billion gallons a year by 2012, according to Collins.
Meanwhile, lawmakers envision vastly more ethanol in the nation's automobiles. Sens. Tom Harkin, D-Iowa, and Richard Lugar, R-Ind., are pushing to require 60 billion gallons of ethanol and soy-based biodiesel by 2030.
An expansion that big would require sources for ethanol besides corn. Ethanol is made from sugar cane in Brazil, which meets about half its fuel demand with ethanol. Sorghum, another feed grain, accounts for about 3 percent of U.S. ethanol, according to the Agriculture Department.
Research is under way on other potential sources, such wood fibers and residue from crop harvesting.
The big question is whether oil and gas will remain expensive.
"When the price of anything gets high enough, then all kinds of substitutes come out of the closet," Collins said. "That's what's going on now. As long as the price of oil stays high, where ethanol is profitable, this industry is going to keep growing."
Here's the first flex fuel conversion that I could find:
http://xcelplus.com/E85/e85informationcenter.htm
http://xcelplus.com/E85/e85informationcenter.htm
It's important to note ethanol's high octane rating does not mean it is a higher performance fuel. It contains less energy than gasoline, and much less than diesel. This is why diesels typically get more miles per gallon than gas, and gas better than ethanol - there is actually more energy in the dino fuels. Hydrogen looks attractive as an alternative fuel because it burns clean and is a completely renewable resource. However, the logistics of hydrogen really prevent it from being a practical, distributable automotive fuel. It's nearly impossible to transport any mass quantity of it. It takes a lot of energy to pump it through a pipeline. It is very difficult to store for long periods of time. Yet again, gasoline and diesel come out on top.
Gasoline and diesel are sure hard to beat as automotive fuels. We've been using them for good reason. But with current events and the world as it is today, I'd be willing to sacrifice a few HP and a little convenience to get the USA off the Middle East's tit.
As for the comment earlier about water emissions from ethanol rusting out your exhaust - all combustion of hydrocarbons produces water vapor. Yes, ethanol produces more than gasoline, diesel, propane, or natural gas. But it's vapor - not liquid. It goes out the tailpipe as well as any other vapor would. Rusty exhausts would only be a problem on a vehicle that makes only very short trips, where the exhaust system would not have a chance to heat up fully and dry out.
Jared
Gasoline and diesel are sure hard to beat as automotive fuels. We've been using them for good reason. But with current events and the world as it is today, I'd be willing to sacrifice a few HP and a little convenience to get the USA off the Middle East's tit.
As for the comment earlier about water emissions from ethanol rusting out your exhaust - all combustion of hydrocarbons produces water vapor. Yes, ethanol produces more than gasoline, diesel, propane, or natural gas. But it's vapor - not liquid. It goes out the tailpipe as well as any other vapor would. Rusty exhausts would only be a problem on a vehicle that makes only very short trips, where the exhaust system would not have a chance to heat up fully and dry out.
Jared
Houndoc
Registered User
- Location
- Grantsville
Here are my thoughts/understanding on alternative fuels
1) Ethanol (E85)
Availinility should follow demand. With most newer GM vehicles (such as my 04 Yukon XL) able to run on it, I think more places will start to sell it over the coming years. If not, we are not out siginificant money in having vehicles set up to run on it anyway, so why not?
As far as the ability to produce it, the U.S. already produces far more food than what can be eaten or exported. Government programs actually pay farmers not to use their land. Having a new market would be one of the greatest things farmers could hope for. And part of the reason so many sell to developers is they cannot make money farming it. If that changes, more land will probably remain as farms. A good thing for everyone, imo. I do not see lack of ability to produce ethanol ever being a problem.
2) Running veggie oil.
My understanding is the only issue with running strained veggie oil in disiels is it is much thicker, so you need to start on regular fuel, which then heats, thus thinning, the veg oil. You then switch tanks to the veggie oil. Before shutting down, you need to switch back and run long enought to clear all veg. oil out of the lines.
My guess is that in the next few years we will see major changes in the fuel industries, as has happened in Brazil. I too have heard that E85 is run in most vehicles there.
1) Ethanol (E85)
Availinility should follow demand. With most newer GM vehicles (such as my 04 Yukon XL) able to run on it, I think more places will start to sell it over the coming years. If not, we are not out siginificant money in having vehicles set up to run on it anyway, so why not?
As far as the ability to produce it, the U.S. already produces far more food than what can be eaten or exported. Government programs actually pay farmers not to use their land. Having a new market would be one of the greatest things farmers could hope for. And part of the reason so many sell to developers is they cannot make money farming it. If that changes, more land will probably remain as farms. A good thing for everyone, imo. I do not see lack of ability to produce ethanol ever being a problem.
2) Running veggie oil.
My understanding is the only issue with running strained veggie oil in disiels is it is much thicker, so you need to start on regular fuel, which then heats, thus thinning, the veg oil. You then switch tanks to the veggie oil. Before shutting down, you need to switch back and run long enought to clear all veg. oil out of the lines.
My guess is that in the next few years we will see major changes in the fuel industries, as has happened in Brazil. I too have heard that E85 is run in most vehicles there.
Houndoc said:
do you have any sources for this? I have always read that the US is 5% of the world population but we consume 95% of the world's food supply (or soemthing dramatic like that). I also have NEVER heard of farmers being paid to not farm their land. You're right, thy do sell to developers because they can't make money farming, but it's not cause they aren't allowed to farm their land, it's just the fact that people pay so little for produce and such that they have a hard time breaking even.
Not saying they couldn't keep up with the demand of E85 I'm just wondering where you're getting your info from?