johngottfredson
Threat Level Midnight
- Location
- Alpine
EXACTLY. Imagine if everyone in both parties voted their actual conscience every single cycle. Our political landscape would be so much healthier.
Political So now what
- Thread starter 4x4_Welder
- Start date
Political discussions within
- Location
- Never Far From Nowhere
"Pick which crazy old man you'd like to be president" is a game I'm tired of playing. Biden sucks, Trump sucks. Both of them are going to further ruin the country in their own special ways. I'll vote for the No Labels/Libertarian candidate so at least my conscience is clear that it wasn't my vote that continued the country down the path of geriatric retardery.
You can say that my vote "helped" Biden get into office again until the cows come home, but the truth of the matter is that Trump has done all he can to drive me away from voting for him. Maybe if he were a better candidate I'd vote for him.
02SE
Well-Known Member
- Location
- Millcreek, UT
Every Election I have ever voted in, has been for "the lesser of two evils". That will continue to be the case going forward. There has yet to be a politician that I agreed with entirely.
I recall one politician I knew very well, as he was my Bishop. My Dad was in his Bishopric. He went on to be our longest serving Senator. Even though I liked him personally, I didn't agree with everything he did. But I voted for him every time he ran. If there had been a better alternative, I would've voted for someone else.
I never will throw away my vote on a politician who has no hope of winning. I will always support the politician who has a chance to win, and best represents my beliefs.
I recall one politician I knew very well, as he was my Bishop. My Dad was in his Bishopric. He went on to be our longest serving Senator. Even though I liked him personally, I didn't agree with everything he did. But I voted for him every time he ran. If there had been a better alternative, I would've voted for someone else.
I never will throw away my vote on a politician who has no hope of winning. I will always support the politician who has a chance to win, and best represents my beliefs.
UNSTUCK
But stuck more often.
Remind me why a two tiered voting system is bad. Why not be able to make my top pick a 3rd party candidate and then pick one of the other two as a back up if my first choice receives less than xx% of the votes. Dose this not fix this whole issue? No "thrown away" votes.
Corban_White
Well-Known Member
- Location
- Payson, AZ
We need to get rid of the parties and specifically the party primaries and just have a general primary to whittle down the candidates and then a final election. Then all the middle of the roaders would have a voice instead of being forced to choose the "lesser of 2 evils".
johngottfredson
Threat Level Midnight
- Location
- Alpine
Isn’t this a self fulfilling prophecy? As long as the political system works this way, political operatives will know they can get the average voter to hold their nose and pull the lever for whoever is the brand name party candidate. And here we are, with no one happy but the nut jobs and the super party insiders.
Trump in 2016:
“If you really like Donald Trump, that’s great, but if you don’t, you have to vote for me anyway. You know why? Supreme Court judges, Supreme Court judges,” Trump said at a rally in Cedar Rapids, Iowa. “You have no choice, sorry, sorry, sorry. You have no choice.”
Trump: Republicans ‘have no choice’ but to vote for me
“You have to vote for me anyway. You know why? Supreme Court judges.”
thehill.com
This is the attitude of the republican and democrat party leaders. And as long as the voters give them this power, nothing will change.
I will never throw my vote away on a candidate that doesn’t represent me and my beliefs.
Houndoc
Registered User
- Location
- Grantsville
That is the exact reasoning that has us in the mess we are in. Most Republicans don't like Trump and most Democrats don't like Biden, but too many voters want to be on what is supposedly the 'winning' team and thus vote for a candidate they don't want.
Also keep in mind that at one point Republicans were a new, start up 3rd party (Lincoln was only their second presidential candidate.)
It was very frustrating to me that the state legislature passed a bill to end ranked choice voting.
I am not fully convinced, but like the idea behind California's non-partisan primaries. Top two are in the general regardless of party. In states like Utah with very heavy one party domination, that would at least give more options come the general election.
Houndoc
Registered User
- Location
- Grantsville
Seeing the amount of dissatisfaction with Trump on here, I hope there will be a significant turn out at the caucuses tonight (remember you need to pre-register online prior to the meeting) to vote for an alternate Republican candidate.
ID Bronco
Registered User
- Location
- Idaho Falls, ID
Rank Choice Voting lets candidates lie about who they are and what they believe. I will fight against this, it's being pushed in Idaho right now by progressives who are having a hard time winning on progressive principals. Same folks who expanded medicare a few years ago and totally lied all the way to the voting measure.
It's a way for liberals to win in red states by half truths and deception.
It's a way for liberals to win in red states by half truths and deception.
glockman
I hate Jeep trucks
- Location
- Pleasant Grove
How does Rank choice influence the ability for Politicians to lie? I thought that was just an inherent trait of all politicians.
Rank choice allows you to vote for your top choice, then if they don't win, your vote waterfalls to your next choice.
If you pick a Republican as your top choice and Rank Choice allows you to add a backup, I don't see why it would be common for someone to select a Progressive or Democrat as their second choice.
In my opinion, it would allow way more people the peace of mind to vote for a third party knowing that if they didn't win, their vote would fall to the backup. For me that looks like a Libertarian for President with the second choice being the Republican candidate. This system give the third party a chance and will undo the stranglehold of the two party (which is only two parties by optics) system.
ID Bronco
Registered User
- Location
- Idaho Falls, ID
The measure here in Idaho prohibits anyone stating what party affiliation they have or what platform they align with. It would also be illegal for anyone connected with county elections to reveal how a candidate has affiliated in the past. So a 20 year democrat can tell a few lies in a stump speech, pretend to be moderate when no one can check on their previous support, ideology. They can be a chameleon for a short amount of time and then ram liberal progressive ideals home when elected. I want to know right up front which platform they support. Obviously they all tell lies (I knew that would be the first comment) but I want to know what they profess to support on way more issues than I can find out about in a local debate or forum. Everyone pushing this are long time Dems in Idaho and are tired of losing. I don't want their policies and neither do most of their neighbors.
I realize it's comfortable and fashionable to be "moderate" or "bi partisan", ect. I'm don't think that is where we need to be at all. We need to put the hammer down on basic principals and not pander to false ideas. There are men and women, killing babies is wrong, managing our borders is essential to our survival as a country. These are things I don't bend on. Trump is our best option. Can you imagine how Nikki Haley or anyone else for that matter (myself included) would respond and hold up under the tactics of the DNC and their puppets the "media" It would be a blood bath. Bring on Trump who is resilient to all the underhanded and downright unlawful tactics they utilize. I believe there are a lot of Trump supporters who don't want to be demonized by their peers for liking him so they are quiet about it. I'm not.
Pike2350
Registered User
- Location
- Salt Lake City
You can feel this way, but it is the worst possible way to lead a country. Your ideals are your ideals, but they are not everyone's. You want the country to be run by your ideals alone, and you go as far as to state that's not where we need to be. You would rather force your views on everyone else then negotiate and work/compromise to come to as close to "mutually beneficial" as possible. Sounds very "dictatorish" of you.
Makes perfect sense that the parties are getting more and more radical to their respective sides.....it is this exact mindset that fuels that. There are way too many people and ideologies to have a "One Size Fits All" mindset.
You can live by your ideals 100% and should, but forcing those ideals on everyone is just wrong....sorry
glockman
I hate Jeep trucks
- Location
- Pleasant Grove
That isn't a rank choice thing, that's the establishment trying to sabotage rank choice. That's ridiculous.
Unimog
Eric
- Location
- Stansbury Park, UT
IMO, that has nothing to do with rank choice. Sounds like a prime example of a disinformation campaign being moved into legislation! The whole purpose of voting, rank choice or not, is to understand a candidates position on issues, and lacking information about that, their background, and values and beliefs they hold.
02SE
Well-Known Member
- Location
- Millcreek, UT
It has nothing to do with being on the "winning team"...
It simply has to do with choosing the lesser of two evils. As I already said. Trump with his faults, is still FAAAAAAAAAAAR better than Biden.
ID Bronco
Registered User
- Location
- Idaho Falls, ID
Nothing to be sorry about, I'm not forcing anything, it should go through the proper channels but I won't apologize or negotiate the things that matter most to me. Worst possible way to lead a country? Standing up for principals isn't what I'd call the worst way to lead a country. But I should be more willing to work together.
- Location
- Bountiful, land of rocks
- Location
- Price, Utah
Houndoc
Registered User
- Location
- Grantsville
Assuming that is an accurate assessment of the proposal (I would question that but of course have not looked at the actual proposal, since I am not in ID) as has been said it has nothing to do with ranked choice.
Beyond that, your assessment on the importance of being on the extreme, refusing to accept others think differently and that Trump is the savior of our country are all things I strongly disagree with.
I would dare say you have cause and effect mixed up. The fact that extreme conservatives in some parts of the country are convinced "liberals" are out to destroy all they hold dear and extreme liberals are certain "conservatives" detest them (which is probably not wrong) drives the division.
It is not a product of moderates who realize we all live in the same country, want mostly the same things (peace, prosperity, happiness) but have a variety of views as to how to achieve those goals.
OK, but as has been said, those two are not the only options (especially on the Republican side) .
But we certainly do hear people support one of the two because they are the 'front runner' not because they actually believe they are the best option.