Political So now what

Political discussions within

glockman

I hate Jeep trucks
Location
Pleasant Grove
I agree with your premise that choices have consequences.
I would also argue that pre-emptive punishment ('you might break the rules so you can't be on the team') is wrong.
But it is worth noting that those most vocal (here or other places) against athletes who 'disrespect the flag' very seldom, if ever, bring up rules (which I also have heard have become far less restrictive at this year's games), but simply fall back onto the accusations of 'hating America' etc.
Maybe it's because it seems ironic to sign up to represent a country that you claim to dislike? Have you ever had a door to door saleman say, " Hi I'm from XYZ corp. They are terrible and offer a horrific product built using child labor. They should be shut down, by the way I am paid by them to represent them"

One the other hand, people on both sides seem to want to shut down opposition, kind of like the White House saying Facebook is responsible for COVID deaths because they let people have an opinion and make public statements.
 

Stephen

Who Dares Wins
Moderator
Most of us agree so now what are we going to do about it and can we do anything?
The most effective way to do anything about the direction that our country is taking is to be engaged. I've said this before: socialism dies in the light of information.
If you're talking with family, friends, or acquaintances and someone starts talking about how horrible the country is and how wonderful it would be if we just embraced X socialist policy; challenge them. Not in an aggressive way, but in a thoughtful way. Ask them to fully articulate why they feel that way and how X will better the country (chances are they can't). And then rebut with why you don't feel that way. Most people who are out there parroting AOCesq talking point don't really know what they are saying and when confronted with an opposing view are incapable of defending their positions. You may not change their minds in one conversation (and please, keep it a conversation, arguments only embolden extremism), but they will be surprised that someone pushed back and that will make them think twice later on.
Next, contact your elected officials. Worried about CRT and Activist-Civics being taught to kids in school? Write to your School Board member, state representative and state senator. Let them know your concerns in detail and ask them what they are going to do to prevent these patently un-American ideologies from being taught in school. Again, be pleasant and non-confrontational; but firm. Follow up if you don't hear back in a week or so. Show up to public meetings and voice your concern. Sign up to be a speaker, wait your turn and speak coherently and with conviction. Don't be a tard and just start screaming "remember this day" or some nonsense.
Get involved with local and national organizations that are fighting for what you want. Donate money and more importantly time. Most of these groups are vastly out funded and manned by those they oppose.
Run for office. I'm not kidding. You live in Bicknell? Run for the town council. Sure, Bicknell isn't a hotspot for crazy left wing culture, but you being on the town council a) keeps that from happening b) gives you a greater access to county and state officials to express the concerns of your constituents.
Finally, vote! We still live in a representative democracy and your number one way to express your opinion is to go to the polls. Sure, who you vote for for President in Utah might not make an iota of difference nationally, but who you vote for school board makes a huge difference locally.
 
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Pike2350

Registered User
Location
Salt Lake City
To me, the biggest thing we need to do now is stop being so blinded by our own thoughts. Both sides are horrendous at this lately. It seems that very few people can think in an objective, rational manner. You don't have to agree with the other side, differences are what help make this country grow....however, I feel that sometime in the past 20 years the dialogue has moved to name-calling (both sides) accusations (both sides) as well as a completely irrational hatred for ANY political belief that goes against your own (both sides)

The truth lies somewhere in the middle. It just seems that if you agree with even 1 policy of the opposing side you are labeled as a traitor, racist, socialist, whatever. How did the political parties become the parties of 1 ideal? I mean that in the way that when 1 policy is talked about, you seem to be only be 1 side full bore or the other.....even if you may agree with the other side on the other 99 policies. Everything is now politicized and we fuel that by arguing, name calling and being just down right nasty to each other over differing beliefs.

I am so sick of the way people have to tear others down, or claim the other side has an agenda (destroying America or creating a white nation, or whatever) Neither is remotely near that truth.....generally everyone wants the best for everyone else. The way the feel is the best way to accomplish that is different sure...but to actually think the other side is out to destroy this nation is stupid, and making that person unable & unwilling to listen to the other side and look at things in an objective, rational manner.

So take a step back and look at what/why someone may really believe what they believe....you don't have to agree, but you don't have to be an asshole about it either.
 

glockman

I hate Jeep trucks
Location
Pleasant Grove
To me, the biggest thing we need to do now is stop being so blinded by our own thoughts. Both sides are horrendous at this lately. It seems that very few people can think in an objective, rational manner. You don't have to agree with the other side, differences are what help make this country grow....however, I feel that sometime in the past 20 years the dialogue has moved to name-calling (both sides) accusations (both sides) as well as a completely irrational hatred for ANY political belief that goes against your own (both sides)

The truth lies somewhere in the middle. It just seems that if you agree with even 1 policy of the opposing side you are labeled as a traitor, racist, socialist, whatever. How did the political parties become the parties of 1 ideal? I mean that in the way that when 1 policy is talked about, you seem to be only be 1 side full bore or the other.....even if you may agree with the other side on the other 99 policies. Everything is now politicized and we fuel that by arguing, name calling and being just down right nasty to each other over differing beliefs.

I am so sick of the way people have to tear others down, or claim the other side has an agenda (destroying America or creating a white nation, or whatever) Neither is remotely near that truth.....generally everyone wants the best for everyone else. The way the feel is the best way to accomplish that is different sure...but to actually think the other side is out to destroy this nation is stupid, and making that person unable & unwilling to listen to the other side and look at things in an objective, rational manner.

So take a step back and look at what/why someone may really believe what they believe....you don't have to agree, but you don't have to be an asshole about it either.
I have rarely, if ever 100% agreed with any person I have ever met, even the ones I truly admire. I have learned A LOT from people I vehemently disagree with on multiple issues. Your point is a great one. People are multifaceted and boxing them in as "left wing" or "right wing" because they hold one view doesn't do anyone any good.

I've found, as Stephen points out, if you politely ask why someone thinks something, THEN LISTEN TO THEM, you can A) maybe learn something or B) maybe convey your side to the person. Maybe my Utah upbringing is showing here, but I think the majority of people are good people with decent intentions. I mean RME is full of good dudes! We can't be an outlier right?
 

ID Bronco

Registered User
Location
Idaho Falls, ID
Seems to me that many people consider it "free speech" if they agree with a message, "politicizing" if they don't.

One of the most lacking concepts in recent years is recognizing people's right to protest or voice views that you may personally disagree with is just as critical as your rights to make your own views known.
I have always tried to follow the premise that if I want the ability to have free speech (like to talk about religion) then I have to be willing to protect the free speech that I may disagree with (maybe pornography or something like that) .

However this is not the same thing. She has every "right" to protest, no one on here has said she cannot do that in America, but she certainly should not be supported by the organization (country) that she is against. I would not continue to employ a person who I paid to represent me if they were purposely disrespecting my organization. That certainly does not mean I don't care about or only support free speech when I agree with it.
 

jackjoh

Jack - KC6NAR
Supporting Member
Location
Riverton, UT
Yes, stop giving attention and energy to hypocrites. Especially celebrities.
I want to personally thank Herzog, Stephen, Pike2350, and Glockman for their inciteful replies. I will be sending copies of their comments to family and some friends to try and get a dialog going and hopefully do my part for the country.
 

xjtony

Well-Known Member
Location
Grantsville, Ut
This is an exercise that I have been doing with friends and my 17 year old. I ask them to tell me specifically who benefited from policies of "X" politician, or what has improved or gotten worse from "Y" politician. I want my son to have his own views but base them on facts instead of emotion or retoric. It has been a constructive exercise.
 

TRD270

Emptying Pockets Again
Supporting Member
Location
SaSaSandy
I want to personally thank Herzog, Stephen, Pike2350, and Glockman for their inciteful replies. I will be sending copies of their comments to family and some friends to try and get a dialog going and hopefully do my part for the country.

First time anyone has used the word insightful and Shane in the same sentence.

...... I kid of course :rofl:
 

xjtony

Well-Known Member
Location
Grantsville, Ut
"Too often we judge others by their worst example while judging ourselves by our best intentions"

Below is the speech George W Bush gave at the memorial service for the officers gunned down in Dallas several years ago. I was not a fan of his spending or many of his policies, but this is worth listening to if you have a few minutes. I feel like this is the first time we heard George W Bush the man, not the politician. His message is one that remains relevant in our time.
 

Coco

Well-Known Member
Location
Lehi, UT
I listened to that speech live, and was amazed by the words he used. Very relevant to this day and age.

I will leave comments of the speech that followed him to myself. At the time, I felt it wasn't a good speech, but maybe if I replayed it, my opinions and views would change.
 

Stephen

Who Dares Wins
Moderator
No idea what that is and I don't see an explanation on the web.
In the late-70's the ACLU defended a pro-Nazi groups right to march in Skokie, Illinois. The argument the ACLU made about defending Nazis was that even though they disagreed with their politics, they felt that every one in America had the right to freely assemble.
 

Houndoc

Registered User
Location
Grantsville
To me, the biggest thing we need to do now is stop being so blinded by our own thoughts. Both sides are horrendous at this lately. It seems that very few people can think in an objective, rational manner. You don't have to agree with the other side, differences are what help make this country grow....however, I feel that sometime in the past 20 years the dialogue has moved to name-calling (both sides) accusations (both sides) as well as a completely irrational hatred for ANY political belief that goes against your own (both sides)

The truth lies somewhere in the middle. It just seems that if you agree with even 1 policy of the opposing side you are labeled as a traitor, racist, socialist, whatever. How did the political parties become the parties of 1 ideal? I mean that in the way that when 1 policy is talked about, you seem to be only be 1 side full bore or the other.....even if you may agree with the other side on the other 99 policies. Everything is now politicized and we fuel that by arguing, name calling and being just down right nasty to each other over differing beliefs.

I am so sick of the way people have to tear others down, or claim the other side has an agenda (destroying America or creating a white nation, or whatever) Neither is remotely near that truth.....generally everyone wants the best for everyone else. The way the feel is the best way to accomplish that is different sure...but to actually think the other side is out to destroy this nation is stupid, and making that person unable & unwilling to listen to the other side and look at things in an objective, rational manner.

So take a step back and look at what/why someone may really believe what they believe....you don't have to agree, but you don't have to be an asshole about it either.

Very well said.

And so often ignored by many (and at times myself.)

If you look at the Olympic anthem/flag issue, consider how many references are made to "hating America", socialism, Marxism etc. when the reality is someone uses a visible position to protest what they see as a racial injustice and where none of those labels apply.

Considering why someone is protesting instead of labeling them can be very meaningful.

The idea that only one train of thought can be patriotic or love America is wrong.
 

jackjoh

Jack - KC6NAR
Supporting Member
Location
Riverton, UT
Very well said.

And so often ignored by many (and at times myself.)

If you look at the Olympic anthem/flag issue, consider how many references are made to "hating America", socialism, Marxism etc. when the reality is someone uses a visible position to protest what they see as a racial injustice and where none of those labels apply.

Considering why someone is protesting instead of labeling them can be very meaningful.

The idea that only one train of thought can be patriotic or love America is wrong.
My problem is I can not find anyone to discuss this without getting bashed for my view. If you were born into a country you should respect the laws and flag until such time they are changed by the constitution and if you move here you know what you are going to do and need to respect the laws and flag or do not come here or move away.
 
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