Political So now what

[Houndoc]

Maybe the end result is the difference. My end result isn't endless immigration by legal or illegal means. I think there needs to be limits and there are a bunch of criteria that should be considered. So although the two issues definitely affect one another I don't see them as the same issue.

I don't want to assume your long term vision for this country so I'll stick to mine. Ultimately I don't want unfettered, endless immigration into the U.S. The folks that believe everyone should have a chance to live here no matter what don't seem willing to admit that openly when it's what they really want. Globalism

I like the U.S.A. and the American way of life. I don't want that to be drastically different, and millions of immigrants who are not expected to assimilate will make this a giant mess. Controlled, steady, sustainable immigration adds flavor and quality to our nation. The immigrants of old came to become Americans. Not Irish Americans, or Latino Americans and on and on. They assimilated and built this into a great place. Let's have more of that.

Being pro-immigration is absolutely not the same thing as pro-"globalization "

Throughout our history there has been a fear among some that immigrants who were seen as different in anyway would change the country, make it less "America."

That lead to strong anti-immigration sentiment against many groups, Irish, Italian, Chinese etc.

With hindsight I think we can see those fears were unfounded.

Same is true today. New immigrants and their descendants will be every bit as American as you unless you define being American on holding to cultural traditions largely of European origin.

Let them bring their traditions, foods and culture. Makes life much more interesting. And remaining proud of those traditions and heritage as hyphenated Americans does not lessen their being American in anyway.

 

[ID Bronco]

Being pro-immigration is absolutely not the same thing as pro-"globalization "

Throughout our history there has been a fear among some that immigrants who were seen as different in anyway would change the country, make it less "America."

That lead to strong anti-immigration sentiment against many groups, Irish, Italian, Chinese etc.

With hindsight I think we can see those fears were unfounded.

Same is true today. New immigrants and their descendants will be every bit as American as you unless you define being American on holding to cultural traditions largely of European origin.

Let them bring their traditions, foods and culture. Makes life much more interesting. And remaining proud of those traditions and heritage as hyphenated Americans does not lessen their being American in anyway.

Disagreement is alright. If they all want to be as American and you or I why do we have signs in more than one language? I'm sure you don't see a problem with that but I do. I would not go to another country to live and refuse to learn the language or embrace the culture. Does that mean I couldn't remember my heritage in my old country? No, but I shouldn't try to change theirs either.

I have concerns of Sharia Law and similar ideologies creeping into America. There is no place for it here. When I lived in Florida I met many groups that refused to become American. Cubans were the most prominent. Been here 40 years and don't speak a lick of English. When these groups of folks all live in one area, only deal with their own and the like it creates a lot of division.

I purposely didn't say pro immigration = globalism in every case, but many globalists hide as pro immigration supporters. It's a tricky business, trying to see others true motives.

 

[johngottfredson]

And remaining proud of those traditions and heritage as hyphenated Americans does not lessen their being American in anyway.

Didn’t you just say America is the melting pot, and that’s great? How then is being a hyphenated American not less, or at least different, than being fully melted into the pot? The hyphens by their implication suggest being less than regular American, it indicates that they identify as a subgroup rather than being fully integrated. It really contradicts what you seem to be advocating.

 

[Houndoc]

Disagreement is alright. If they all want to be as American and you or I why do we have signs in more than one language? I'm sure you don't see a problem with that but I do. I would not go to another country to live and refuse to learn the language or embrace the culture. Does that mean I couldn't remember my heritage in my old country? No, but I shouldn't try to change theirs either.

I have concerns of Sharia Law and similar ideologies creeping into America. There is no place for it here. When I lived in Florida I met many groups that refused to become American. Cubans were the most prominent. Been here 40 years and don't speak a lick of English. When these groups of folks all live in one area, only deal with their own and the like it creates a lot of division.

I purposely didn't say pro immigration = globalism in every case, but many globalists hide as pro immigration supporters. It's a tricky business, trying to see others true motives.

You don't think that the America you see and love is a product of immigration changing the culture?

Keep that in mind with every pizza, taco or gyro you eat. Those were not introduced into the American diet by the pilgrims or pioneers.

 

[Houndoc]

Didn’t you just say America is the melting pot, and that’s great? How then is being a hyphenated American not less, or at least different, than being fully melted into the pot? The hyphens by their implication suggest being less than regular American, it indicates that they identify as a subgroup rather than being fully integrated. It really contradicts what you seem to be advocating.

The America "melting pot" analogy is an interesting one, and probably largely a myth as many immigration and racial boundaries have been in place since our founding.

Some seem to think that to be "American" we all must be the same- speak the same, act the same, think the same. That is the basis of "assimilation".

I would wonder how we would ever define what is the "American Culture" that we expect people to adopt. New Orleans during Mardi Gras? Harlem? Kansas Wheat Farmer? South Central LA? El Paso? Pocatello?

If the melting pot idea holds any truth it would be that each wave of immigration brings its own traditions which then become part of the whole- meaning both those who immigrate and those already here are changed. I could agree that has been the case.

 

[johngottfredson]

The America "melting pot" analogy is an interesting one, and probably largely a myth as many immigration and racial boundaries have been in place since our founding.

Some seem to think that to be "American" we all must be the same- speak the same, act the same, think the same. That is the basis of "assimilation".

I would wonder how we would ever define what is the "American Culture" that we expect people to adopt. New Orleans during Mardi Gras? Harlem? Kansas Wheat Farmer? South Central LA? El Paso? Pocatello?

If the melting pot idea holds any truth it would be that each wave of immigration brings its own traditions which then become part of the whole- meaning both those who immigrate and those already here are changed. I could agree that has been the case.

I’m for cultural influence, for sure. But if I ever refer to myself as Danish-American please kick me in the gonads.

 

[Cody]

I for one specifically value the cultural diversity of the United States, and the idea of the "melting pot", to me, is one that allows for all cultures and ways of thinking to coexist in tolerance and, together as one, be proud of the country that enables that to happen. We should be celebrating our differences, not singling them out for change. I've said many times before on here, I feel a bit weird when I go to areas that are void of diversity. I think a lot of people get caught up in the idea that the culture of the United States is, or should be, some universal thing that everyone needs to align with. Were the immigrants in New York that quartered themselves in Irish, and French, and Jewish, and Chinese, and whatever neighborhoods less "American" because they still held true to their individual cultures while also being part of this other, larger and more diverse, country of people?

The "one language" thing is just silly to me too. The US does NOT have a national language. Why do you think that is? Sure, the predominant language here is English and it would seem to make sense that for ease of assimilation immigrants would want to learn that language. But are people in southern Belgium less "Belgian" because they speak French? Are the Basque less Spanish because they don't speak Spanish? The rest of the world pretty routinely speaks multiple languages, it's seems to be a uniquely American idea that the everyone else should change to accommodate us.

The reality is, we're all going to need to speak Spanish and Mandarin in the next 50 years anyway, so maybe those that refuse to learn another language are the ones that need to change.

 

[johngottfredson]

The reality is, we're all going to need to speak Spanish and Mandarin in the next 50 years anyway, so maybe those that refuse to learn another language are the ones that need to change.

This ain’t true. When I was in China I heard an exchange between a woman from Spain, a man from Germany, and the Chinese guy at the airport. What language were they speaking? English. We already won the battle of the universal language of business. Signs point to China not taking over the world after all, so I’m bullish on English staying on top.

I do speak Spanish though, which is the absolute best second language to learn. Everyone should do it. I might even brush up on my one year of German I took in eighth grade in case the krauts ever get another notion of taking over.

 

[Stephen]

This ain’t true. When I was in China I heard an exchange between a woman from Spain, a man from Germany, and the Chinese guy at the airport. What language were they speaking? English. We already won the battle of the universal language of business. Signs point to China not taking over the world after all, so I’m bullish on English staying on top.

I do speak Spanish though, which is the absolute best second language to learn. Everyone should do it. I might even brush up on my one year of German I took in eighth grade in case the krauts ever get another notion of taking over. Don’t count those effers out, ever.

English is and will continue to be the lingua franca for the foreseeable future. What will change is universal translators, this is already making an impact and will even more so with AI coming to smartphones in greater quantity. With universal translators in everyone's pockets, the need to learn another language will diminish greatly. This is one of the few massive intrusions of technology that I'm very excited about.

French is the defacto second language of business around the world, but this is a holdover from the 18th and 19th centuries and is fading. In our part of the world, Spanish is certainly the most useful and I wish I had a better grasp on it. But I'm a traditionalist, and took French in Jr. High and High School. When my wife and I were planning on going to France for our honeymoon, I enrolled in a Conversational French class at the U and was shocked at how much I remembered. But COVID torpedoed those plans...

And then in college I just couldn't help but indulge and took Russian. Я не знаю.

 

[glockman]

English is and will continue to be the lingua franca for the foreseeable future. What will change is universal translators, this is already making an impact and will even more so with AI coming to smartphones in greater quantity. With universal translators in everyone's pockets, the need to learn another language will diminish greatly. This is one of the few massive intrusions of technology that I'm very excited about.

French is the defacto second language of business around the world, but this is a holdover from the 18th and 19th centuries and is fading. In our part of the world, Spanish is certainly the most useful and I wish I had a better grasp on it. But I'm a traditionalist, and took French in Jr. High and High School. When my wife and I were planning on going to France for our honeymoon, I enrolled in a Conversational French class at the U and was shocked at how much I remembered. But COVID torpedoed those plans...

And then in college I just couldn't help but indulge and took Russian. Я не знаю.

As I've stated, my wife works for the state. If someone calls in and doesn't speak English, the state of Utah pays a language line service $5 per minute to translate! As you've pointed out, there are many services that could easily automate this, but alas, government efficiency shines through.

 

[Cody]

I do find it interesting that a lot of conservative people seem to want the government to leave them alone. Personal freedoms, states rights, don't tread on me, take my guns over my dead body, so on and so on. They don't want the government to tell them what to do. But if there is a legal citizen of this country that doesn't speak English (and there are a lot of them), they want the government to make them learn English. That just seems contradictory to me. Nothing annoys me more than when an advocate of personal freedom is only an advocate for THEIR personal freedoms, and want their personal freedoms forced upon everyone else.

 

[glockman]

I do find it interesting that a lot of conservative people seem to want the government to leave them alone. Personal freedoms, states rights, don't tread on me, take my guns over my dead body, so on and so on. They don't want the government to tell them what to do. But if there is a legal citizen of this country that doesn't speak English (and there are a lot of them), they want the government to make them learn English. That just seems contradictory to me. Nothing annoys me more than when an advocate of personal freedom is only an advocate for THEIR personal freedoms, and want their personal freedoms forced upon everyone else.

That's an odd correlation. I have zero opposition to people speaking whatever language they want. However there needs to be a standard. We can't have road signs and written documents in every language spoken on the planet. That has nothing to do with personal freedom. It's just not practical to have 4 official languages in a country.

 

[ID Bronco]

I do find it interesting that a lot of conservative people seem to want the government to leave them alone. Personal freedoms, states rights, don't tread on me, take my guns over my dead body, so on and so on. They don't want the government to tell them what to do. But if there is a legal citizen of this country that doesn't speak English (and there are a lot of them), they want the government to make them learn English. That just seems contradictory to me. Nothing annoys me more than when an advocate of personal freedom is only an advocate for THEIR personal freedoms, and want their personal freedoms forced upon everyone else.

I don't give a hoot if they never speak English if they are legal. But I do have a problem with them demanding that services are available to them in the language they speak. It is a drain on public resources (tax dollars) that could help in a lot of other social areas. (their personal freedoms forced upon everyone else) It's not a double standard, that being said EVERYONE has some places they erroneously want the govt involved in society. Me included but that doesn't mean you can't take a stand somewhere.

 

[Stephen]

63G-1-201 Official state language

 

[Cody]

That's an odd correlation. I have zero opposition to people speaking whatever language they want. However there needs to be a standard. We can't have road signs and written documents in every language spoken on the planet. That has nothing to do with personal freedom. It's just not practical to have 4 official languages in a country.

Agreed, but we don't have any official language in this country. I think it's perfectly practical to list things in the predominant language, and if people don't speak that language are inconvenienced, then they can learn the language if they want to. Asking the government to make them do it is silly to me. I want the government doing less. I've also driven in close to a dozen different countries that don't speak English...you can usually get the gist of what they are trying to say . Airports almost always have 3 languages posted, and English as has been mentioned above, is the bridge language for most of the world...which is weird because English is a notoriously complicated language to learn. It's usually fairly convenient to travel if you sprechen the English.

I don't give a hoot if they never speak English if they are legal. But I do have a problem with them demanding that services are available to them in the language they speak. It is a drain on public resources (tax dollars) that could help in a lot of other social areas. (their personal freedoms forced upon everyone else) It's not a double standard, that being said EVERYONE has some places they erroneously want the govt involved in society. Me included but that doesn't mean you can't take a stand somewhere.

I get that, but there is going to be wildly varying ideas of what the appropriate amount of government provided social welfare should be available, and if the government has to translate and print some docs in different languages to help it's legal (and by association, illegal) residents, then that's just how it is. Having two languages on a sign doesn't exactly take away from your personal freedoms does it? What, you might involuntary learn a few words from a different language?

The sad truth is that saving tax dollars on only printing and posting government docs and messaging in a single language isn't just going to go back into our taxpaying pockets. It'll be funneled into some other area that will almost certainly pad the pockets of another privately fueled political agenda. So conceptually I'm on your side of managing our government in a financially efficient way, but in practice it does not behoove our elected partisan politicians to behave in that way because it would likely directly impact their personal bank accounts. What actually might go into our taxpaying pockets would be savings all over the food/agricultural/manufacturing supply chain that would potentially result from making life easier for those that come here to work the jobs we're not willing to work ourselves.

63G-1-201 Official state language

Meh. I'm sure everyone beat their chest about that, but I still see local governments forms provided in different languages, so it's probably just business as usual. I honestly don't deal with state or local government all that much, so maybe things have changed and I just haven't seen it.

 

[glockman]

This article is hard to read in a serious voice. As silly as many people in the US are, the UK has us beat hands down.

Idris Elba says knife crime is at ‘boiling point’ as he demands machete ban

The actor and musician says some children in the UK carry knives because they are scared

www.independent.co.uk

 

[Stephen]

Meh. I'm sure everyone beat their chest about that, but I still see local governments forms provided in different languages, so it's probably just business as usual. I honestly don't deal with state or local government all that much, so maybe things have changed and I just haven't seen it.

I'm not sure many people are beating their chest about it, but it did reduce paperwork. That was one of the big components of the push, was that State documents were being printed in something like 14 different languages. It clearly defines that the expectation is that if you want to do business with the State of Utah, it needs to be done in English first.

Perhaps its a pyrrhic victory, but its a step towards standardization; which means less government spending, intrusion, etc. etc. and I'm a fan of that. Now what people do in there private lives and businesses, I could really care less. For example, you can't order in English at many of the best Mexican restaurants in the the state, but those al pastor tacos are worth it!

 

[Houndoc]

I don't give a hoot if they never speak English if they are legal. But I do have a problem with them demanding that services are available to them in the language they speak.

I have been able to spend time in 35 or so countries, driving in over a dozen of those.

English is not the official or predominant language in many and my foreign language skills (Korean and Swahili) are not widely used.

I certainly appreciate signs and other official information being available in a language I know.

And in many countries it is common place for traffic signs to be in multiple languages.

It clearly defines that the expectation is that if you want to do business with the State of Utah, it needs to be done in English first.

Perhaps its a pyrrhic victory, but its a step towards standardization; which means less government spending, intrusion, etc. etc. and I'm a fan of that.

As was said, I fail to see how helping provide official government services in a language other than English is "government intrusion ".

Reality for residents and citizens whose first language is something other than English the opposite could be argued.

And to think we would somehow decrease the state or federal budget by only putting English on signs is rather absurd.

I think we can all agree that the roles and services the government does provide should be done efficiently and to the benefit of residents.

Simple reality is that cannot be done by limiting government transactions to a single language.

 

[Stephen]

As was said, I fail to see how helping provide official government services in a language other than English is "government intrusion ".

You're missing the forest for the trees here. Leviathan expands indefinitely unless there is some attempt to prune it back. Saying that English is the official language of the State of Utah is one small attempt to stop the growth by saying, "No, we as citizens are not going to spend X amount on translating, printing, and providing services in 14+ languages no questions asked." The statute allows for exceptions, but as a rule if you want to conduct business with the State, the other party should in good faith do so in the predominate language of the land.

Reality for residents and citizens whose first language is something other than English the opposite could be argued.

They are the minority. The overwhelming majority of citizens in the State of Utah and the United States as a whole speak English. Government is here to serve all citizens, yes, but in a representative democracy such as ours it should predominately serve the interest of the majority. Statute 63G-1-201 was enacted by the will of the majority, as such it is incumbent on the minority who do not speak English to learn or figure out some way to navigate the system accordingly. And as the statute stipulates, the State will reasonably provide language services if requested. If the majority will changes, then the statute should be changed to reflect that. As of today, that is not the case.

And to think we would somehow decrease the state or federal budget by only putting English on signs is rather absurd.

I think we can all agree that the roles and services the government does provide should be done efficiently and to the benefit of residents.

Simple reality is that cannot be done by limiting government transactions to a single language.

See my comments about Leviathan above.

Again, if people want to speak Klingon exclusively in their homes and run an Elvish only bookstore, whatever.

 

[Houndoc]

They are the minority. The overwhelming majority of citizens in the State of Utah and the United States as a whole speak English. Government is here to serve all citizens, yes, but in a representative democracy such as ours it should predominately serve the interest of the majority.

Interesting to see a conservative argument for simple majority rule.

Seems like our entire Constitutional Republic was designed for something very different.