Southwest Crawlfest... what went wrong?

[Greg]

I haven't been too involved with the Southwest Crawlfest event and all that went on, but it sounds like there are many people unhappy with certain aspects of the event. My goal here is to facilitate a discussion, have a place where we can address the issues and get everyone involved some closure.

As you've noticed, we have decided to close down the SWFC forum, initially because of a legal threat, then due to the negative rumors and apparent poor organization and management of the event, specifically money handling and the overall 'land use' theme of the event and lack of actual money donated to the named Land Use orgs, as promised. I've decided that even though there was threat of a law suite, this discussion needs to be had and heard.

Let me say up front, that this conversation needs to stay on track, not jump into personal insults or attacks and the end goal is to bringing out the truth. I'm hoping that we can come to some kind of resolve here so those that feel wronged can hear about what happened. Lets try to keep this civil and try to keep the discussions short and to the point.

I would really like to hear Steve Crabtree address any of the issues that come up, so Steve if you read this, please join in the conversation.

 

[ricsrx]

Thank you Greg.

 

[1\4elliptic toy]

This is probably where we better begin.

Back to some more facts:

U4 was given a money order or check (better be a money order... ) for 46 memberships. However, we do not at this time have a list of NAMES to go with that money. If you are reading this, and you checked U4 on your SWCF registration, PLEASE pm me with your info. It seems odd to me that the money would be separate from the names...
Also, some math:

U4's memberships: 46
USA-ALL's : 10
total 56

total registrations, who all had to check a box : 150
registration memberships acc'td for: 56
memberships that must have gone to BRC: 94.

As a matter of due diligence, I'll be talking to Mr. Del Albright in two shakes here, more later.

None of this had to happen, and it sucks that everyone has to take time to verify simple stuff like that.

 

[SAMI]

I was not involved in this event, however I feel that I have been wronged simply due to the negligent attitude towards the land managing groups that have been involved. Our access to our back country is on the chopping block, and the last thing we as Utahns need is someone within our ranks souring the opinions and experiences that our land management agencies have with our 4x4 groups.

My question to Steve Crabtree is, what are you personally planning to do to mend bridges with any of these management agencies that may have a bitter taste in their mouth towards the 4x4 community due to your negligent management of the SWCF?

 

[Tacoma]

I just got back, and I have to say:

Thank you Steve, for giving our membership director the money for the 46 memberships I don't have names for yet-- as well as providing the opportunity for them to sign up. I am not busting any balls saying this, I mean it. As you know, any opportunity to get people involved, even a little, in land-use is welcome to me.

No thanks for the drama though. Vendors, attendees, media, all made it a point to find me this weekend and tell me their opinion of SWCF. Now maybe they ARE all saboteurs, but I don't think they are. As I am so very fond of saying, where there's smoke, there is usually fire. If not, it's a really good idea to prove it and make your opponents look like the idiots you take them to be. By saying nothing, you give credence to the claims.

As of right now, vendors, registrants, media, and government agencies believe they have reason to be upset. SWCF was advertised as a land-use event, with proceeds from the raffle and the $15 set aside in the registration to "go to land use". U4WDA has apparently received the money from the registrations, but you have yet to clarify the raffle issues. And to be clear, I am not grubbing for any money from that raffle-- just trying to help explain the issue so we can all get some clarity on it.

I can promise you that if I was ever involved in something that had questions raised, I would do my damnedest to clear them up ASAP!! and if I was accused of impropriety, I would absolutely destroy my accusers with the TRUTH. Logically, if that isn't happening then another theory might take root.

Missing product donations, sketchy financials, rumors.. it's kind of getting thick.

The facts as of 9pm:

U4 has been paid, and the list of names/addresses is pending. Fair enough on that front.
USA-ALL has a list of names/addresses, but no money.
Blue Ribbon Coalition has not gotten ANY information or money. Del is not happy with the drama.

Having to explain this away when U4's involvement only extended to having a booth at SWCF really kind of takes a LOT of my own time, which I could definitely be using more productively. Like maybe talking to land managers instead.
It needs to be dealt with one way or the other, right now it's a huge issue to a lot of people and frankly, I don't blame them.

But like I said, this can be cleared up pretty easily if everything's on the level. It is what it is, as they say--- good or bad.

 

[SAMI]

^ You forgot to add that the list of names for USA-ALL is incomplete.

 

[1\4elliptic toy]

Hey Paul, Did you attend the event? Who did you designate as your "preferred Land use" org?

 

[anderson750]

Hey Paul, Did you attend the event? Who did you designate as your "preferred Land use" org?

I was at SWCF and when I registered I designated USA-All.......sort of as a test of accuracy. I spoke to Steve when I was leaving the event Saturday night about getting the list of names and the money. I was told I would have a list of names the following week. Over the next 3 weeks I tried contacting him several times through email and PM here on RME. I finally received a response back from him on 2/2 where he told me his family has been sick since Crawlfest and he would get it to me soon.

Soon ended up being 2/10 after all hell was breaking loose in the original SWCF thread and I made my post asking for people to contact me directly if they designated USA-All in their registration. When I received the list of names for USA-All from Steve it did not include my name. I immediately emailed him about the ommission and he says that my name was in with names that had problems with their registration.....apparently these are not with the regular registrants. It does not really make sense to me since I did not have any problems with my registration and I would think that if you are going to send somebody a list, you would check everything. In light of U4 and BRC not having any lists of names and USA-All's inaccurate list, I do not have much confidence in his systems or processes.

I am glad U4 has received money of some kind, but I am not holding my breath for BRC or USA-All to see any.

 

[anderson750]

My goal here is to facilitate a discussion, have a place where we can address the issues and get everyone involved some closure.

Thanks for starting up this thread Greg. I hope in the end we can get some answers to the questions that everyone has. The SWCF was an incredibly fun event and I enjoyed my time there. However I do have a couple of major concerns with a couple of things that surround the event.

1. There seems to be some displeasure with land managers about this event. Particularly Sand Hollow. You can have an awesome event where everyone has fun, but if you piss off the people who make it possible, it will be ruined for everyone.

2. Besides it being outright fraud, I take major issue with any person or organization who raises money under the premise of land use with the intentions of not using for that cause. Here are a couple of quotes from SWCF website.

Southwest Crawl Fest in its fourth year continues to promote land use issues and organizations. Proceeds from the $40,000 off road product raffle go to support land use organizations including: Blue Ribbon Coalition, United Four Wheel Drive Association and Utah 4 Wheel Drive Association.

Over $40,000 in products donated for our sponsors to create one of the largest land use raffles. Tickets are sold at the event for $1 per ticket. Donations benefit the land use groups listed in the sidebar.

So one would believe that the money being raised from the raffle is going to land use.....namely the 6 land use organizations that were being promoted. I would bet that the companies who donated what made up over $40,000 wourth of merchandise would say they thought the money was giong to that also.

3. I would like to know where the missing raffle items are?

 

[TheBigSgt]

I want to say how sorry I am that I was there, with other LAND USE organizations promoting this event.

I am glad and thank the 45 people who put U4WDA down as there group to recieve the donation. If you did, please feel free to contact me and I'll be sure to get your information added.

Thank you.

 

[Greg]

Lets keep this thread on track about the organization and the outcome of the event and focus on addressing these issues. Keep the personal info and unfounded accusations for another time.

 

[del0075]

so instead of sending a pm, why dont he get on and tell us all what is going on....since he is online

 

[sixstringsteve]

I think an event like this has great potential for good or for bad. With so much publicity, advertising, and high attendance, that power really needs to be governed carefully.

I love the idea of a weekend where a bunch of people get together to focus on land-use. I still think a lot of people went just to hang out and have a fun time, and don't care about land use, but that's ok, I'm sure a lot of people became aware as well.

I would love to see more events with these intentions in the future assuming ALL the $ goes to land use orgs, people participate in trail cleanup, land use awareness, etc. Unfortunately, this event will probably leave a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths for future land-use events (especially the vendors).

If I were to organize a land-use event, I would do the following:
- No food, t-shirts, advertising, hats, beanies, etc. or any unnecessary fees/money exchanging
- set up a system of checks and balances
- keep meticulous records, especially where donations, raffles, etc are used
- have people from each land-use org there to meet and greet
- explain the fees and costs up front, before and after. Complete transparency with the numbers.


I did not go to SWCF this year, but I went last year. Last year there were some great things that I think went well:
- I got to meet Sarge. Now that may not be a big deal to a lot of people, but actually putting a face to these orgs really helped me.
- The trails were fun
- The trail descriptions/ratings were pretty accurate
- There were a lot of fun trails for every ability level
- I met a lot of nice people
- my wife and I enjoyed it overall

There were a few downsides last year:
- the trails were too packed
- there were added last-minute regulations like flags, or extra insurance or park entrance fees, or something like that. I don't remember the exact specifics.

I honestly think that Steve focused most of his efforts on making sure the trail runs were going smoothly, which he didn't leave much time to focus on making sure all the bases were covered on the donation/land use org/monetary side of things. I'm not excusing him, but that's what it looks like to me.

I got to meet Steve last year and run a trail with him. He was super down-to-earth and a great guy to be on the trail with. I will defer judgment based on the "facts" that have/will come out in these threads.

 

[Greg]

so instead of sending a pm, why dont he get on and tell us all what is going on....since he is online

I have invited him into this conversation, he admitted there were some misjudged numbers for the event, but he's worried that he will get piled on. I've told him that it would be best for him to post up, come clean and admit in public that mistakes were made, not by sending PM's to a handful of people.

I've told him this thread will stay civil and on track and hope that he will take me up on the invitation. So that's how this thread will progress... civil and on track. No personal attacks, rumors, etc.

 

[del0075]

it looks like i will have to stay out of this, cuz everything i have to say you would take as a personal attack, even though its the truth.......... but i will just lurk and watch...........

 

[Stacey]

Claims are made there were 150 registrants, I do not think this number is accurate, nothing ever comes out to an even number nor do I believe half the people who attended are free loaders. Do not know how to come up with a real registered number since Steve holds all the records.

All the money from the raffle should be devided up among the land use Orgs. who were listed on the SWCF website. $15.00 from each ticket sale should also go to these Orgs.

I really do not care how much the event cost to hold, if the organizer looses money for missmanagement then that is his problem, maybe next time he will be a better manager - example - not buy 450 shirts 2 days before the event for, as he says, 150 regitered individuals.

Again, ALL the money promised should be paid to whom it was promised to.

 

[Cruiser]

My question is, has the BLM been paid? I like to know that the 4WD community is in their good graces as well!

 

[anderson750]

Lets keep this thread on track about the organization and the outcome of the event and focus on addressing these issues. Keep the personal info and accusations for somewhere else.

Sorry.

 

[Don B]

My question is, has the BLM been paid? I like to know that the 4WD community is in their good graces as well!

There were problems with the BLM last year that has effected other events in the area. We are now having to obtain permits and buy insurance where we would not have had to prior to SWCF 2010.

The 4WD community is still in good with the BLM, but SWCF has caused problems with them that we have to work through.

I don't know if the BLM has been paid this year, but I'm going to be looking into that as well as checking to see if there were any other issues.

I was intimately involved with the problems between the BLM and SWCF last year and have first hand knowledge of what went on.

 

[Greg]

it looks like i will have to stay out of this, cuz everything i have to say you would take as a personal attack, even though its the truth.......... but i will just lurk and watch...........

Del, I think you're just too close to the situation and most of your experience is personal. It may best that you stand down for the time being. What you posted up before was complete and total conjecture and not directly related to SWCF and this conversation, which is why it was deleted. Rumors do us no good, personal attacks don't lead us anywhere... we need facts and answers.

Sorry.

It wasn't you, so don't worry about it. The post I was referring to is gone now.