SUWA takes Canyonlands ORV ban request to Washington

[jackjoh]

I think to start if your not a member of a club then you need to be, i thought i was from signing up for one through southwestcrawlfest but i never got a email or anything im pretty sure i signed up for U4 but with the scandal i will proably never know. I think the next thing is to start attending any land use meetings or court hearing and write out rep's. in the the state

Good suggestion and read the following.


Welcome on behalf of RME and the U4WDA.
Be sure to read all the instructions in "Introductions & using the Forum".

U4WDA believes the four wheeling community is best served by:
1. Education thru the use of classes, pamphlets, and films to teach responsible conservation.
2. Use Auto Dealerships and suppliers for the distribution of information.
3. Support Utah Counties in obtaining Quiet Claims to roads within their jurisdiction.
4. Stays informed and work closely with all Government Agencies and local law enforcement.
5. Where practical uses peer pressure to keep OHV use within the law.
6. Inform local agencies and law enforcement of illegal OHV use.

We promote the following: BRC/UFWDA: National legislation, action alerts, lobbying, etc
USA-All:- Local legislation, action alerts, lobbying, etc
U4WDA: On the ground actions. Service projects, education, club training, broadcasting the needs of Usa-All, UFWDA & BRC to its member clubs. Require clubs to be members of Usa-All, UFWDA & BRC, tie it into dues.
Member Clubs: Rides, education, hats, jackets, newsletters, raffles, etc. Require membership in U4WDA
Individuals: Join a club and promote responsible use amongst fellow travelers.
BRC:- National legislation, action alerts, lobbying, etc
Usa-All:- Local legislation, action alerts, lobbying, etc
U4WDA: On the ground actions. Service projects, education, club training, broadcasting the needs of Usa-All & BRC to its member clubs. Require clubs to be members of Usa-All & BRC, tie it into dues.
Member Clubs: Rides, education, hats, jackets, newsletters, raffles, etc. Require membership in U4WDA
Individuals: Join a club and promote responsible use amongst fellow travelers.
http://delalbright.com/index2.html

http://www.sharetrails.org/recreation-toolkit

http://www.nohvcc.org/education/education.asp
http://www.u4wda.org
http://www.usaall.org

 

[jackjoh]

Had a meeting at suwa with Deeda Seed and Scott Braden. Did not walk out with a CD but got a 3'x5' foot map and an offer to return and talk. Will post more tomorrow when I am off duty.

 

[jackjoh]

My visit to Suwa
As I walked up to the porch of Suwa‘s 5 million dollar home Deeda Seed came walking around the corner and said “You must be Jack”. I think I said something like “I didn’t know an appointment had been made” Of course they monitor RME just like we monitor them so she had been fore warned of my visit. Deeda is a nice looking woman and definitely a politician as her stint in SLC will attest too. You all know her life style choices and those things she has organized and supported before so will not go into that.
Deeda was very accommodating and answered all of my questions. I asked what would be the effect of off road people agreeing to all 9 million acres they want to make into wilderness with the stipulation that roads in those areas remain open to travel. She said that they would like to sit down with us and negotiate what roads would remain open and in fact their plan has a few roads open for ingress/egress or access to specific areas. Suwa had actually done this with mountain bike groups to resolve some of their complaints. I asked what Suwa would do if they got all they wanted and she stated that they would be glad to be worked out of a job. I can’t help but believe that they would just pick on something else or add even more wilderness but that is what she said. Deeda also admitted that she doubted if there was any Wilderness area that wasn’t within a mile of a road.
I then asked for a better map of the ARRWA proposal and she introduced me to Scott Braden and produced a 3’ by 5’ map of their proposal that I turned over to Ron Tolman Wednesday night. Scott has offered to answer any questions about the map and would furnish GPS coordinates of any areas or roads in question. If I remember correctly they also stated that they wanted to or were trying to get coordinates in conjunction with Google Earth.
This for me is the bottom line. We are at opposite poles of opinion on off road vehicle use and may never be able to accommodate or reach any kind of compromise but there may be some things we can agree on. Speaking of compromise, I offered that OHV users would be required to compromise while Suwa would not because they were taking from us and they were not giving anything.
I think it is to our advantage to acknowledge that they are after all just human beings just like us with a passion for what they do. We should stay in contact to find those places we agree on even though they are wrong in most instances.
We need to police and educate our own so we can change the negative public image we have. This would decrease their funding and increase ours. I propose that the U4WDA take an active part in this.
Speaking of funding, U4WDA is in the process of getting their 501c3 and it is hoped this will increase our funding to the point we will not have depend on volunteers for everything. We should recognize that we are grass roots organizations and have history, politicians, and numbers on our side. These are our strengths so learn how to make them more effective.
This note is to Deeda – Thanks, and I hope we will continue this communication and maybe I will see you and your family on the trail.

 

[scoutabout]

Thanks for your efforts jack.

 

[airmanwilliams]

Thank you jack for all the info and some of the link some of you others are including. I am writing a paper in english class on land use and hope through this to get more knowledge and more involved this summer in this fight.

 

[jackjoh]

New bodies are always welcome. Can you come to the U4 meeting this Thursday, 6:30pm, LHMiller Jeep in Sandy?

 

[Johnny Quest]

New bodies are always welcome. Can you come to the U4 meeting this Thursday, 6:30pm, LHMiller Jeep in Sandy?

more info on the meeting?? is it open to the public?? can i come??

 

[airmanwilliams]

sure wish I could go I have to work until 745

 

[jackjoh]

more info on the meeting?? is it open to the public?? can i come??

Yes, open to the public. All are welcome.

 

[ozzy702]

I'll try to make it there with my GF. How long do the meetings normally take and what do they normally consist of agenda wise? (Gotta prepare the GF so she's not bored )

 

[Stacey]

I do not agree with giving an inch with SUWA on increasing wilderness unless other wilderness designations were released. These guys are pricks, why even talk to them, this implies they have power. The one who hold the power are the politicians, this is who we need to be talking with. Also, now is the time to develope our own maps showing areas that have already been locked up which need to be opened. The reason SUWA is successful in what they want, besides being in bed with Santan, is the are on the offensive, make them spend money defending what they have already done and see what they have left to close new open spaces.

 

[Brett]

I do not agree with giving an inch with SUWA on increasing wilderness unless other wilderness designations were released. These guys are pricks, why even talk to them, this implies they have power. The one who hold the power are the politicians, this is who we need to be talking with. Also, now is the time to develope our own maps showing areas that have already been locked up which need to be opened. The reason SUWA is successful in what they want, besides being in bed with Santan, is the are on the offensive, make them spend money defending what they have already done and see what they have left to close new open spaces.

You talk to them because they have a lot of political clout and politicians listen to them. They have a LOT more members all across the country compared to the smaller groups like U4 here. Unless you have had a sudden brain storm on how to make SUWA spend more money fighting us, that bankrupts them, then I suggest you post your ideas on how to remedy all the problems. Spouting off drivel that goes no where but your key board (and mind right now) does nothing to help figure out a solution.

 

[Stacey]

You talk to them because they have a lot of political clout and politicians listen to them. They have a LOT more members all across the country compared to the smaller groups like U4 here. Unless you have had a sudden brain storm on how to make SUWA spend more money fighting us, that bankrupts them, then I suggest you post your ideas on how to remedy all the problems. Spouting off drivel that goes no where but your key board (and mind right now) does nothing to help figure out a solution.

Hey smart ass, I have spent thousands of dollars working against SUWA, I don't need you telling me I am speaking drivel. To even suggest the 4 wheel community would be willing to give in to 9 million acres of additional wilderness in trade for roads being left open is nuts. First off, to think SUWA is going to stop if they got what their asking for is foolishness. They are a money making machine, the only way to keep that going is to keep the pressure on for more wilderness.

 

[ozzy702]

Hey smart ass, I have spent thousands of dollars working against SUWA, I don't need you telling me I am speaking drivel. To even suggest the 4 wheel community would be willing to give in to 9 million acres of additional wilderness in trade for roads being left open is nuts. First off, to think SUWA is going to stop if they got what their asking for is foolishness. They are a money making machine, the only way to keep that going is to keep the pressure on for more wilderness.

I've basically said the same thing several times. Instead of us being on the defensive we need to be offensive in opening more trails, opening trails that have been closed and fighting for land tooth and nail.

What people don't understand is the mentality behind the war that SUWA and other groups like it wage. They aren't looking for compromise, they are looking to eradicate our sport because they don't understand and value it. They DO NOT want you to have the right, let alone the land to wheel. It's no different than the whole 2nd amendment fight, same mentality.

As a community we're weak across the nation. Apathy and a lack of organization are our biggest problems. I don't say that with ANY disrespect towards individuals and groups that have worked tirelessly in defense of our land use; it's just a sad fact that a small percentage of those in our sport actually contribute to the fight. I'm as guilty as any but since moving to Utah I'm going to try and get a lot more involved and help where possible.

Edit: A great example of the effect of opening several trails in close proximity are Moab and Johnson Valley. Because so many people love them and go there, any attack on one trail is an attack on many. It elicits a much stronger support from our apathetic and unorganized community.

I'm from Northern CA originally and I've seen the effect of the kind of thinking behind SUWA first hand all around me. Pertaining to wheeling I've seen plenty of trails shut down and I've seen the persistent and never ending attacks upon the Rubicon. Once again, the only reason the Rubicon is still open is because SO many people care about it. So, in short, I feel like we need to be a group of people always pushing for new trails and always trying to add numbers to our cause. I'd say a good 75% or more of people I've taken wheeling have loved it and support open trail use, even if they had no prior involvement in the sport.

 

[Stacey]

I've basically the same thing several times. Instead of us being on the defensive we need to be offensive in opening more trails, opening trails that have been closed and fighting for land tooth and nail.

What people don't understand is the mentality behind the war that SUWA and other groups like it wage. They aren't looking for compromise, they are looking to eradicate our sport because they don't understand and value it. They DO NOT want you to have the right, let alone the land to wheel. It's no different than the whole 2nd amendment fight, same mentality.

As a community we're weak across the nation. Apathy and a lack of organization are our biggest problems. I don't say that with ANY disrespect towards individuals and groups that have worked tirelessly in defense of our land use; it's just a sad fact that a small percentage of those in our sport actually contribute to the fight. I'm as guilty as any but since moving to Utah I'm going to try and get a lot more involved and help where possible.

Edit: A great example of the effect of opening several trails in close proximity are Moab and Johnson Valley. Because so many people love them and go there, any attack on one trail is an attack on many. It elicits a much stronger support from our apathetic and unorganized community.

I'm from Northern CA originally and I've seen the effect of the kind of thinking behind SUWA first hand all around me. Pertaining to wheeling I've seen plenty of trails shut down and I've seen the persistent and never ending attacks upon the Rubicon. Once again, the only reason the Rubicon is still open is because SO many people care about it. So, in short, I feel like we need to a group of people always pushing for new trails and always trying to add numbers to our cause. I'd say a good 75% or more of people I've taken wheeling have loved it and support open trail use, even if they had no prior involvement in the sport.

Well said, thank you.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

...To even suggest the 4 wheel community would be willing to give in to 9 million acres of additional wilderness in trade for roads being left open is nuts...

Is it nuts? If every existing route was cherry-stemmed into Wilderness would that many still oppose it? There are some loosely affiliated with the 4-Wheel community that are supportive of new Wilderness, in fact there used to be a club called '4-Wheelers for Wilderness' or something to that effect that was comprised of very active Jeepers that also happened to be Wilderness lovers. Cherry stem the existing routes and I think the support from our community would exponentially increase. Even Usa-All (Brian Hawthorne) proposed a Wilderness plan that was more than the BLM's initial inventory. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I like the idea of new Wilderness where appropriate. I think current WSA's need to be re-inventoried and where appropriate they become Wilderness and in the many cases they were not appropriate for Wilderness designation they be returned to standard inventory.

I don't manage to hold a candle to your angst for SUWA, they are smart, they are educated, they are passionate and they are effective. While their end goal is often 180 degrees from my own, they are far less apathetic than our own community and do in fact hold the power to work on projects that would benefit both sides i.e. education and means and mode for self-policing out on the trails.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

What people don't understand is the mentality behind the war that Usa-All and other groups like it wage. They aren't looking for compromise, they are looking to eradicate Wilderness or untraveled lands because they don't understand and value it. They DO NOT want you to have the right, let alone the opportunity to enjoy serenity. It's no different than the whole 2nd amendment fight, same mentality.

So take a look at my edit of your comment and your it could very well be posted on a grassroots hiking forum no different in community structure than our own. So who is unwilling to compromise?

I don't want roads everywhere, I don't want ATV's all places. At some point our community needs to admit that some areas are not appropriate for motorized use. I spend as much time in Utah's outdoors as most, usually 2-3 days a week out on trails, sometimes more. Its hard to argue the impact that the careless have and while I don't believe for a minute that a new designation is going to somehow change the behavior of rogue user that are already breaking the law, I do think that we need to recognize our impact and make sure its appropriate for our uses. We have to plead for our users not to tear up the shoulder season canyons in the wet month, we have to beg our users to respect trail closures and yet I read yesterday on a Utah moto forum of some major destruction on a closed trail in AF at the hands of some rogue moto users. Do we belong everywhere?

I've watched the RS/Constrictor area deteriorate and get trashed, trees destroyed, beer cans littering the ground. We could easily discount this as the impact from the minority or non-OHV'ers (shooters for example) but not on Constrictor? I could cite examples all day long, you should see the crap we pulled off of Waynes World last weekend, lights, belts, battery cables, oil soaked towels, absolutely appalling. As much as I hate to say it but every recreate in a permit only area such as the Maze? Zero litter, zero rogue tracks, as good as condition (likely better) than it was 30 years ago. Hard to argue with enforcement in moderation.

Think SUWA and the federal government are the worst trail closure offenders? Take a guess at why places like the popular Proving Grounds and Sand Flats routes near Lions Back in Moab were closed in the recent years by State Trust Lands... excessive OHV damage that was diminishing the value of the property. Did SUWA force that hand? No, our community did.

Now, let me be very clear. I do not support a land slide Wilderness designation, in fact I don't support any Wilderness designation that closes historic and existing routes. I am not an advocate of corralling a growing user base onto a dwindling route inventory and furthermore find the idea of that less than sound as an outdoor ethic. I think dispersed use is key to minimizing impact. I think we need to launch a co-branded education that not only discusses the importance of responsible OHV use but also the importance of preserving our environment and recreating in a Tread Lightly manner. I think we need to self-police our own, keep them out of Forest Lake, keep them from wrapping their winch cable around a tree, keep them from blazing over a route closed sign. I think we need to change our current plan of action as the current one is in failure mode at best.

 

[ozzy702]

Kurt I've never said that we shouldn't look for intelligent compromises, just that we need to be very aware that those unflinchingly fighting to close trails DO have the all or nothing game plan in mind for the long run.

I too find the amount of litter I have seen on trails absolutely appalling and alarming since it's fuel for the fight against us. One of the things I love about my truck is that the bed is ends up being a garbage bin for anything found on the trail (excluding torched cars etc ). One of my best friends, Mike and I were in Moab last may and I was pleasantly surprised to see how clean the trails were. We probably picked up three or four pieces of trash the entire week and that was on 15 or so trails. I realize that may not always be the case in moab but that's how it should be EVERYWHERE.

Driving off designated trails is another nail in the coffin that people need to come to grips with. I'm all for having multiple lines of difficulty and intelligent bypasses for obstacles but it all needs to be done properly and with MINIMAL impact. One of the problems we've had with the Rubicon in the past is people going off trail and making optional routes. Another was with trash and feces not being disposed of properly. Given recent trail conditions I think we're doing a LOT better on major trails but we have a long way to go.

Mike, (Mike was just on the trail with us a week ago WED too for those of you that were at the snakes) is an environmental science major and is doing an internship for the forest service this summer. I take him wheeling all the time and while on the trail we talk about responsible and low impact trail use. He loves wheeling but is also a conservationist first and foremost at heart (I also think he's been a bit indoctrinated but that's expected given his major). Seeing things from the other point of view is incredibly important for us and without that knowledge it's impossible for us to take the necessary steps to insure long term trail use.

There are two groups against us in the land use battle, the moderate conservationists and the extremists.

The way that moderates like my buddy mike Mike see land use is this:

If offoaders (they lump ATV, Dirt Bike, UTV and 4x4's into the same general group) can't use low impact practices, police themselves and preserve the environment then the only way we can ensure that the above is done is to shut down trails so they will learn.

We've had many discussions about the above and how in practice it can sometimes actually backfire and lead to worse situations but for the most part is effective in stopping or slowing destruction but unfortunately doesn't have the desired effect of change EVERY WHEELERS mindset. I won't go into that because it's a lengthy subject and off topic.

The way that extremists view land use is that anything unnatural shouldn't be able to use the land, IE mnt bikes and any motorized craft. They don't see the value of "unnatural" use of land resources and don't want ANYONE to have the LEGAL RIGHT to use them.

Moderates ARE looking for compromises and are willing to work with us for responsible land use. They DON'T want to shut down trails that are used responsibly and that WE POLICE EFFECTIVELY. I believe that the overwhelming majority of people that support trail closures are moderates NOT extremists and WE ARE TO BLAME for their support of extremists groups whose long term goals are the eradication of our sport.

Kurt I completely agree with what you wrote above. I hope I didn't give the impression that I want trails on every square foot of undeveloped land. Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact that's one of the reasons I'm a proponent of developing dense trail systems like we have in Johnson Valley, Moab and larger 4x4 and motorsports parks (both public and private) across the nation. Geographically they cover a relatively small area of land, leaving the rest as untouched and unspoiled as possible.

I LOVE hiking in the Sierras in areas where there are NO roads and where you seldom see the signs of human use let alone other people. It's wild to be in the middle of nowhere with just your feet to take you from peak to peak.

What I do feel we need to do is push for intelligent, permanent use of trails deemed valuable by OUR community and the option to develop new trails responsibly. At the same time we need to fix our community from the inside and make sure we're policing ourselves with diligence. Unfortunately, taken as a whole we are our own worst enemies.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

...Moderates ARE looking for compromises and are willing to work with us for responsible land use. They DON'T want to shut down trails that are used responsibly and that WE POLICE EFFECTIVELY. I believe that the overwhelming majority of people that support trail closures are moderates NOT extremists and WE ARE TO BLAME for their support of extremists groups whose long term goals are the eradication of our sport...

I think you summed it up quite nicely. Its those fringe extreme groups that make it so hard to find a suitable middle ground and to be fair they exist on both sides of the motorized debate.

...Kurt I completely agree with what you wrote above. I hope I didn't give the impression that I want trails on every square foot of undeveloped land. Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact that's one of the reasons I'm a proponent of developing dense trail systems like we have in Johnson Valley, Moab and larger 4x4 and motorsports parks (both public and private) across the nation. Geographically they cover a relatively small area of land, leaving the rest as untouched and unspoiled as possible.

I'm a proponent of leaving lots open in lots of places

...What I do feel we need to do is push for intelligent, permanent use of trails deemed valuable by OUR community and the option to develop new trails responsibly. At the same time we need to fix our community from the inside and make sure we're policing ourselves with diligence. Unfortunately, taken as a whole we are our own worst enemies.

Spot on... education, enforcement and continued goal of access. Rather then spend 100% of the limited user effort on fighting for "access", why not reroute it to education and enforcement which I truly believe has the ability to help curtail some of the closures. I maintain a database of trails here in Utah, open and closed, in limbo, etc. #1 threat to our trails, private property issues. #2 threat, not being BLM land... ie. FS, NPS, etc and their differing mandate for control of routes. #3, lack of pro-activity by our community i.e. getting them on maps during RMP processes. While it would be naive to say we have not lost quality routes to Wilderness and WSA (I'm fully aware of the routes we have lost having hiked many of them), we can be thankful it is not as bad as it could be.

Now, this is 'trails' proper, i.e. not just routes, these were quality enough routes to get a name. Hard to clarify but a good way to keep tabs on the situation.

 

[Brett]

Hey smart ass, I have spent thousands of dollars working against SUWA, I don't need you telling me I am speaking drivel. To even suggest the 4 wheel community would be willing to give in to 9 million acres of additional wilderness in trade for roads being left open is nuts. First off, to think SUWA is going to stop if they got what their asking for is foolishness. They are a money making machine, the only way to keep that going is to keep the pressure on for more wilderness.

Good come back buddy Where did I suggest that this type of community would be willing to submit to 9 million acres of additional wilderness? I stated that we need to be able to talk with them, as Jack has done, because politicians listen to them and, as you've said, they have money to toss around, much more than we do. If we have open communication with them, is that bad for us? I don't see it as such, but who knows, maybe I'm just a smart ass.