The EV debate; Electric or Internal Combustion vehicles?

[SoopaHick]

I have not, but I'll have to check it out. I think it would be neat to DIY a hybrid EV... but I'm lacking the electrical knowledge required.

They've been doing really cool stuff! I would definitely look into it. https://www.edisonmotors.ca/
They are a long way from full production as it's still a small company though.

 

[glockman]

As has been stated, most EV's charge at night. As @Greg mentioned the evening is the highest electrical load. There is some tech to use the plugged in EV's as a buffer in the evening and supplement the grid. The article I read made it sound like they'd operate kind of like the watt smart meters Rocky Mtn power is adding to people's A/C but in reverse. It would toggle through all the houses with plugged in EV's to pull a little bit of power and turn your meter backwards. The grid needs some investment to be able to detect the EV's though and there was not real ETA on that.

I have a friend who bought solar panels back in 2008. They sold him an oversized system for his home so he converted a bunch of stuff to electric. He even put baseboard heaters in his garage. He bought a Leaf about 5 years ago and traded his wife's crossover for a Tesla about 3 years ago. He still has a Diesel truck for camping and what not. He did a 2400 mile road trip 2 years ago in the Tesla, up to Rushmore and around, down the coast. He said it cost him $250 in charging. He typically commutes from Saratoga to Lehi for around $20 worth of power per month and that is free to him because of his panels. He also hasn't paid for any power since 2008 and his panels are still putting out more than 95% of their rated wattage after 15+ years. He loves his setup and he isn't a big tree hugger, just a reasonable person who was an early adopter.

 

[Cody]

Solar efficiency is still only like 20% and as we are able to make gains there, the same size solar will be able to do a lot more. There is also other tech out there being developed, including smaller format nuclear, that can pack a lot of punch. I wish I knew the right solar companies to invest in, because I really feel like that is the future. We have an entire globe that is pointed at an infinite supply of clean power for 8-18 hours per day. I think it was Elon that was working on solar roof shingles. I think that technology is going to come. Just think if we could start using solar shingles on new builds and as old builds have to upgrade...that's a lot of surface area pointing at the sun and already plugged into the grid. It might be a ways out there before it's affordable, but I mean, I used to sell 42" plasma TV's for $4000 that were 8" thick, weighed 150 lbs and buzzed if used above 5000' elevation. Now bigger, better, thinner TV's are like $250. Point being, big companies can make a lot of money in that sector, and big companies like to make a lot of money so they'll be continuing to invest in developing that technology.

So saying that we haven't even began investing into a future power grid that can support 30% EV's feels misleading. We haven't invested in traditional power sources that could support that much, but I honestly think that hoping that traditional fossil fuel generated power to power our globe as we punch through 10 billion people just seems silly. We just have to rethink how we address future problems and money flows to opportunity.

 

[Houndoc]

Drive the car with no cost after a $20k investment in solar and batteries (That also have a life span and will need to be redone). While paying the fuel tax every year at registration. I still believe people spend more to drive and EV in the long run. I don’t think the Tax credits offset much of that.

But that just my take on how much I drive and use fuel. Which doesn’t always correlate with everyone else’s needs.

Keep in mind your solar panels and battery will be doing a lot more than just charging your car.

#5 EV's are inherently more time consuming in their operation

How exactly are you figuring that?

Yes, you plug it in (as said usually at home) a few times a week but you aren't stopping to gas up.

 

[Houndoc]

I have a good friend who really surprised my when he went electric with a Telsa.

Professionally he builds custom 1930s roadsters and is overall very politically conservative. His commute is to the garage in his back yard most days and from Grantsville to Eagle Mountain a couple days a week. He has absolutely loved it.

His view has me considering EV for my next commuter.

As for the general topic, the issue is unfortunately seen too much through political lenses.

Regardless of EVs, we will need increased electrical output and wind and solar make sense to be a big part of that. Roof top solar could obviously meet a large part of the current and future demand if widely adopted (I say that but must admit I haven't done so myself yet.)

I doubt we will get anywhere we need to be in regards to meeting long term energy demand if we keep seeing it only as a "green energy" v "drill, baby drill" political debate.

 

[SoopaHick]

Solar efficiency is still only like 20% and as we are able to make gains there, the same size solar will be able to do a lot more. There is also other tech out there being developed, including smaller format nuclear, that can pack a lot of punch. I wish I knew the right solar companies to invest in, because I really feel like that is the future. We have an entire globe that is pointed at an infinite supply of clean power for 8-18 hours per day. I think it was Elon that was working on solar roof shingles. I think that technology is going to come. Just think if we could start using solar shingles on new builds and as old builds have to upgrade...that's a lot of surface area pointing at the sun and already plugged into the grid. It might be a ways out there before it's affordable, but I mean, I used to sell 42" plasma TV's for $4000 that were 8" thick, weighed 150 lbs and buzzed if used above 5000' elevation. Now bigger, better, thinner TV's are like $250. Point being, big companies can make a lot of money in that sector, and big companies like to make a lot of money so they'll be continuing to invest in developing that technology.

So saying that we haven't even began investing into a future power grid that can support 30% EV's feels misleading. We haven't invested in traditional power sources that could support that much, but I honestly think that hoping that traditional fossil fuel generated power to power our globe as we punch through 10 billion people just seems silly. We just have to rethink how we address future problems and money flows to opportunity.

They're trying to put one of those mini Nuclear Plants out on the south end of Eagle Mountain.
Last I heard the city council postponed making a decision to city code changes because a bunch of people showed up to protest it.

I'm a big fan of Nuclear energy, but from what I could tell it was outlandishly expensive to get one of those mini facilities up and running and one of the things that made me hesitant was the developer trying to push the costs to the city causing major tax increases to cover it.

It was really hard to find good numbers and explanations on it all though because
1: These Mini Reactors are brand new and I don't believe any have entered operation yet.
2: So many damn Nuclear haters that it was hard to sift through the scare tactic bs of people that know absolutely nothing about Nuclear Power Plants.

 

[Cody]

They're trying to put one of those mini Nuclear Plants out on the south end of Eagle Mountain.
Last I heard the city council postponed making a decision to city code changes because a bunch of people showed up to protest it.

I'm a big fan of Nuclear energy, but from what I could tell it was outlandishly expensive to get one of those mini facilities up and running and one of the things that made me hesitant was the developer trying to push the costs to the city causing major tax increases to cover it.

It was really hard to find good numbers and explanations on it all though because
1: These Mini Reactors are brand new and I don't believe any have entered operation yet.
2: So many damn Nuclear haters that it was hard to sift through the scare tactic bs of people that know absolutely nothing about Nuclear Power Plants.

I also think that's a terrible idea out there, mostly because I think Saratoga and Eagle mountain are just ticking time bombs waiting to be wiped out by grass fire.

Not only will everyone burn to death trying to get away from the fire on the 1-2 poorly planned exit roads, then their remains will be radioactive so nobody will be able to go to their funerals

 

[spencurai]

I want energy independence. I want every American apartment complex, single family home and business COVERED in solar panels. All of the energy we need smashes into our roofing material every day. GIVE ME SOLAR with battery backups.

Ohhh the sun doesn't always shine? Nuclear!

The oligarchs will never allow it because they gotta suck our blood and get us on solar lease programs and grid tied solar scams. They keep the sale price of solar high through tariffs and the average cat cannot afford to cover his house in solar panels to the tune of 25-50k$.

The rich want you sucking the tit of the oil companies. The rich FEAR electric vehicles because you can make your own energy. They keep the price high, they initiate fake-news campaigns against solar and EV tech and we keep going to the pump with a smile...DEPENDENT ON THE OLIGARCHS. No freedom for you unless you pay the monthly fee and pump the gas.

 

[SoopaHick]

I also think that's a terrible idea out there, mostly because I think Saratoga and Eagle mountain are just ticking time bombs waiting to be wiped out by grass fire.

Not only will everyone burn to death trying to get away from the fire on the 1-2 poorly planned exit roads, then their remains will be radioactive so nobody will be able to go to their funerals

I mean, you're not wrong.

 

[Kevin B.]

There's a lot of cool ways to integrate solar that we haven't really touched yet. Anywhere there's a roof, there can be solar coexisting with existing structure. Parking garages, caps over water tanks and canals, freeway medians, livestock pasture, whatever. There's just the question of the investment to put it in, and I expect a lot of that investment is waiting for improvements in tech - better efficiency, greener manufacturing and recycling, better methods of storage, etc. And all of that is coming. Guys are already crossing the US on e-bikes and other light vehicles powered entirely by solar, and they're big clunky things now that you wouldn't wanna ride in a crosswind, but as the tech gets better those are going to get more sleek and eventually you'll see onboard solar panels supplying a significant portion of the electricity needs for a traditional EV even.

I don't know if solar will ever replace other generation methods entirely, demand is going up fast and will go up faster with increased data storage and AI coming on line. But nuclear is steady and doesn't care about the weather or time of day, and coal/natural gas plants can be spun up on short notice to handle demand spikes without being the main supplier. The geothermal tech that's being developed is promising too. A diversity in the power grid without relying on fossil fuels to carry all the weight can only be a good thing, and solar is definitely going to be a big part of that.

 

[Cody]

Ok, time for Cody's dumb question of the day.

I get why it's not currently practical to make the roof of an EV solar. Too heavy, fragile, and not efficient enough to make much difference (with current tech).

What about wind? I mean, a moving car creates wind that could be directed to pass through some baby turbines. That seems like some opportunity for some regenerative energy capture. Some louvres in the hood, roof, or wheel wells that lead to small little hidden turbines that spin and can add a little juice back to the batteries. Is this not a thing because the drag from the turbine would require more energy to compensate for than the turbine would be able to generate? Maybe I just answered my own question lol.

 

[Kevin B.]

Is this not a thing because the drag from the turbine would require more energy to compensate for than the turbine would be able to generate? Maybe I just answered my own question lol.

You sure did . Google perpetual motion machines and the Law of Thermodynamics if you're curious, but yeah. The energy generated by the fan is more than offset by loss from drag, friction, and electricity transmission.

 

[85CUCVKRAWLER]

Keep in mind your solar panels and battery will be doing a lot more than just charging your car.



How exactly are you figuring that?

Yes, you plug it in (as said usually at home) a few times a week but you aren't stopping to gas up.

If 100% of your driving is scooting around town and returning to your home charger, then sure, your time input is marginally better than a similar ICE vehicle.

If youre driving includes: long trips, trips into remote areas, towing trailers, trips into areas with unkown charging support, or medium trips with heavy heating or cooling requirements, your driving experience is signifcantly worse and/or delayed compared to an ICE vehicle.

 

[glockman]

Hybrids are the least reliable at the moment, but I would love a 3.5 liter twin turbo Powerstroke F350 Hybrid. 35 mpg (without doing Dodge math) 1,000 ftlbs of power to pull hills or get a load rolling and regenerative braking to help keep the load under control. I just think this is going to be an awesome vehicle when it gets here.

 

[mbryson]

Hybrids are the least reliable at the moment, but I would love a 3.5 liter twin turbo Powerstroke F350 Hybrid. 35 mpg (without doing Dodge math) 1,000 ftlbs of power to pull hills or get a load rolling and regenerative braking to help keep the load under control. I just think this is going to be an awesome vehicle when it gets here.

I've long wondered why there isn't a 6.2 or 5.0 Ecoboost. Must be a durability and/or weight thing as I can't imagine it'd be difficult for F*rd engineering to put something like that together. Making it a hybrid would be a natural next step? Maybe there's not much of a market for that in the XL/XLT world?

 

[glockman]

I've long wondered why there isn't a 6.2 or 5.0 Ecoboost. Must be a durability and/or weight thing as I can't imagine it'd be difficult for F*rd engineering to put something like that together. Making it a hybrid would be a natural next step? Maybe there's not much of a market for that in the XL/XLT world?

A little off topic but a simple super charger that already exists for the 5.0 puts out 700HP. I don't think any of the big 3 have transmissions or drivetrains that can reliably hold up to 800HP or more. Maybe that is why they aren't making Hybrid HD pickups. Big electric motors for the on demand torque would be hard on the drivetrain.

 

[Johnny Quest]

Maybe that is why they aren't making Hybrid HD pickups. Big electric motors for the on demand torque would be hard on the drivetrain.

Check out the Dodge RamCharger that’s supposed to come out in the next year or so- maybe not fully in “HD truck” territory, but it’s an 8-lug 1500 with a 3.6 v6 that acts as a 130kw generator; it only charges the batteries. It has a has a pair of 250kw electric motors that have an output of 663hp and 615ft-lbs torque. It’s rated to tow 14,000lbs. Range is almost 700miles.

I’m interested to see if the generator can keep up with the power demand while pulling 14k. If you put some auxiliary fuel tanks in the bed, could you just keep going?

 

[Johnny Quest]

We have a hybrid Pacifica for my wife. It’s the perfect combo for her, as she can get to and from work on a charge, and can do all her running around for the kids on a single charge. With a stage 2 charger, she can get a full charge in about an hour and 20 minutes, and be ready for the afternoon run around. But, it still has a gas engine for the longer trips; we took it to SoCal back in November- batteries ran out quick on the highway, but we didn’t need to get gas until St. George, and even then it was only 3/4 of a tank (16gal capacity).

With typical daily use, it takes us 6-7 weeks to go through a tank of gas.

 

[TRD270]

Hybrids are the least reliable at the moment, but I would love a 3.5 liter twin turbo Powerstroke F350 Hybrid. 35 mpg (without doing Dodge math) 1,000 ftlbs of power to pull hills or get a load rolling and regenerative braking to help keep the load under control. I just think this is going to be an awesome vehicle when it gets here.

Think this is the viable next step, and I’d imagine the truck makers already have the plan in motion. I’d guess they’re trying to squeeze as much money out of their current investments as possible before releasing the next version. I mean trains have been using this technology for how long? Why not pickups or semis.

 

[Corban_White]

I work for an electric utility in AZ. As has been posted already, the grid is absolutely not ready for the EV revolution. Nor will it be anytime soon. Solar is not the answer, unless it is accompanied by batteries. If you are doing it at a consumer level, at that point you may as well go off grid. The main problem with solar sans battery storage, is the solar "duck curve":




With all the rooftop grid-tied solar, the power company has to have sufficient power generation facilities to supply the maximum demand, which happens to coincide with the abrupt drop in solar generation. So to avoid rolling brown/blackouts, the plants have to be able to ramp up production VERY quickly. Like double the entire generation output of the company in 15-30 min quickly. How do we do that? Burn some carbon baby! But that isn't very popular with the masses. So they are closing all the coal plants (bad idea) and pushing to close the gas plants (very bad idea). Nuclear is awesome at base load, but it doesn't ramp up and down easily. The utility I work for operates a (very large) nuclear plant, and other than ramping up during startup and down for shutdown, each unit (there are 3) outputs 1400 MW for ~18 months straight. Then into shutdown and refuling operations, then back up for another ~18 months. So nuclear and solar don't play well together. The answer everyone wants is batteries. But they aren't ready yet. Maybe there will be a breakthrough in battery technology that is environmentally friendly and cheap and long lasting. Then we can charge batteries all day with renewables and discharge them when the wind isn't blowing or the sun isn't shining. But for now all the lawmakers are just banking on future tech that they hope will make their dreams a reality. And in the meantime all the rooftop solar investors are crying fowl when the utility tries to get paid for being the battery for the homeowner. The company I work for currently has ~1300 MWh of batteries to deal with the unreliability of renewable sources of power. Which the greenies love, but the rate payers don't. Coal, natural gas and nuclear are cheap power. All this green stuff isn't . Which is why my power costs more than doubled when I moved here from Utah. And AZ still has one of the lowest rates in the nation. I can't imagine paying a power bill in some of the expensive states!

So back to the EV thoughts. I've wanted one since the OG Model S came out. But it wouldn't be able to replace my ICE cars, it would just be nice to have as a commuter. And now that my daily commute is 10 miles round trip and my drive to Costco is 170 miles round trip, I am even more sure that an EV isn't in my future.

Then there are the .gov subsidies, both for EVs and solar. Maybe that is a topic for a different thread....