The wolves are on my doorstep

cruiseroutfit

Cruizah!
Moderator
Vendor
Location
Sandy, Ut
I don't know. It's not a valid question, really. Whatever the situation may have been a thousand, or ten thousand or a hundred thousand years ago, has not even the slightest resemblance or relationship to what the situation is now.

How about just 100-150 years ago? I think that is a valid question because I'm truly curious. Prior to humans in Utah killing off wolves (which was reportedly happening as recent as 50-75 years ago), how did elk not got extinct by the un-managed wolves. Was it the other available wildlife such as buffalo?

With the largest stake holder not even included in the decision making process except in a purely window dressing/lip service/ass sex-sans reach-around kind of way. And it will be a damn shame when the relatively small and fragile elk herds in Utah get turned into dog shit.

Educate me here, who are you referring to as the largest stake holder? I'm assuming hunters or perhaps ranchers?

So given we know there are 10-60 wolves in Utah, are elk herds and livestock seeing the impact? I've heard of a couple kills and injured sheep dogs in the Coalville area but none other?
 

skiboarder

SkiBoarder
Location
No Ogden
So let me get this straight. They hunt in packs, they kill just to kill, they take only choice parts and leave the rest to rot, they will kill until there is nothing else to kill, and other animals around them are always in danger. WOW!! They sound like humans. Don't you like the competition?
 

Spork

Tin Foil Hat Equipped
So let me get this straight. They hunt in packs, they kill just to kill, they take only choice parts and leave the rest to rot, they will kill until there is nothing else to kill, and other animals around them are always in danger. WOW!! They sound like humans. Don't you like the competition?

I don't have a problem if I have the same freedom as a wolf, if they can hunt me down I don't like authorities telling me that I have to wait until they make the first move.

Personally I think shoot, shovel, and shut up is a good policy with wolves. :spork:
 

RustEoldtrux

RustEoldtrux
Location
Evanston, WY
Mike and I seen a big black wolf 2 years ago in the bear river divide hunting area....They are around.
So Mike, I saw you returning to Evanston tonight. Were you hunting up Whitney Canyon where the wolves are hanging out? You must have missed them Saturday when you were scouting that same area. I like the idea of wolves close by, but the reality is that we will have to be much more careful with them around.
 

mesha

By endurance we conquer
Location
A.F.
How about just 100-150 years ago? I think that is a valid question because I'm truly curious. Prior to humans in Utah killing off wolves (which was reportedly happening as recent as 50-75 years ago), how did elk not got extinct by the un-managed wolves. Was it the other available wildlife such as buffalo?
So given we know there are 10-60 wolves in Utah, are elk herds and livestock seeing the impact? I've heard of a couple kills and injured sheep dogs in the Coalville area but none other?

Humans are the part of the equation that made the elk not go extinct. We weren't there. I don't mean hunting necessarily, I mean we weren't everywhere. There was much more space for the elk and the wolves too. More space, more game. Another argument could be made that since the current population of wolves being the genetic variation from the most hardcore B.A. hunters in the wolf community, the living population are superior predators to the old wolves. Normally that would take many generations to occur, but since we hunted them to near extinction and then bred the ones that were left humans did in a few years what would have taken natural selection a million. The elk haven't been hunted(by wolves) and they haven't adapted.

1960 was when the wolf population in the US was at 300. I assume Utahns participated in the extermination during that time. There was a bounty on them from Teddy Roosevelts time until 1960ish.

The elk herds in Utah aren't really being decimated by wolves.....yet. Elk herds in other places were fine until the wolf population grew. Utahs elk herds will be significantly hurt by wolf populations. I hunt and love the nice elk herds we have in Utah. However, wolves are amazing. I think it will be interesting to watch this whole ecosystem experiment unfold during my lifetime. It is very difficult for a new species to be introduced into(or reintroduced) into an ecosystem community without serious negative impact.

You hit the nail on the head. Soon we will be hunting wolves just like we do with bears, cougars, and other predators. We will control them just like we control everything else, for good or bad.
 

ID Bronco

Registered User
Location
Idaho Falls, ID
Tags are available in Wyoming and Idaho. I will be on the lookout for them while I try to find Deer and Elk. It will be interesting to watch this unfold, that is certain!

I also think the reference to more dog and cougar killings is a little off base since the number of both per capita is much, much higher than wolves. My perspective comes from and Idaho perspective where there are 10X-20X more wolves than in Utah.
 

cruiseroutfit

Cruizah!
Moderator
Vendor
Location
Sandy, Ut
...I also think the reference to more dog and cougar killings is a little off base since the number of both per capita is much, much higher than wolves. My perspective comes from and Idaho perspective where there are 10X-20X more wolves than in Utah.

To be fair I'm not advocating that Utah needs a 200+ population of wolves in fact I'm not saying we need any wolves at all. What I am saying is if they have already organically moved into historic territories (which Utah is) and are seemingly co-existing with nature now (again, wolf sighting reports in Utah are over 12+ years old now), then we don't need to cry alarm do we? If/when they start killing our historic levels of sustainable Elk (I've heard of zero wolf-elk kills in Utah, correct me if I'm wrong) and school children, I think it prudent to investigate pro-active ways to manage including hunting. See that wasn't allowed in Idaho/Wyoming and in fact ranchers were prosecuted for even conspiring to kill them as well as the actual kills. To me it is apples and oranges.

Riddle me this. Idaho is suspected to have ~750 wolves, some of which likely overlap the number in Wyoming and it is fair to say both overlap into Utah's population no? Regardless, lets assume there are 750 in Idaho and just 25 in Utah (most think closer to double that but lets be safe). So we have 1/30th the population. We hear of the "hundreds" and even some proclaim "thousands" of livestock and elk kills, should we not be hearing about at least 'dozens' of kills here in Utah annually? I spent a bit of time googling this last night and came up with perhaps 2 or 3 instances of wolf kills in the last 5 years here in Utah but it is a calf or a few sheep, no significant numbers. Why are our wolves better behaved and not decimating the herds? Group mentality? It was confirmed by the DWR that there is not only wolves in Central Utah but an actual traveling pack, so I'm assuming these packs are capable of killing livestock.

For every bit of research that points to wolves, there seems to be every bit if not more in the opposite direction such as this one from the University of Wyoming published in a hunting magazine and funded by groups like Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, Boone & Crockett Club, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, and Safari Club International.
http://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/newshound/2013/06/study-wolves-not-cause-wyoming-elk-decline

A few things I found interesting:

"We can maintain these elk numbers but we had to severely limit hunting opportunity to do that," he says. "That in itself is difficult for people to understand."

Of course, wolf predation does affect overall elk numbers, but in a separate study Middleton found that wolves weren't even the top calf predators. He found that bears typically take out more elk calves than wolves do. During a June monitoring period grizzlies killed an elk calf every two to four days and black bears killed a calf every four to eight days.

“There has been a succession of fires, which destroyed natural elk habitat. Grizzly bear numbers have gone up and the elk have moved to survive. They have moved to more agricultural and human habitat areas. It’s not just the wolf that’s caused the change. People just look to put the blame on one thing. Yes, elk have moved to areas that haven’t seen elk for 200 years. But there are large portions of healthy elk populations that have moved to private land, which makes them unhuntable … Think of it this way: the elk are picking their poison. Either deal with hunters in the low country for 6 weeks, or stay in the high country and deal with wolves and bears year round.”
 

O'neal

?????????
Location
evanston wy
So Mike, I saw you returning to Evanston tonight. Were you hunting up Whitney Canyon where the wolves are hanging out? You must have missed them Saturday when you were scouting that same area. I like the idea of wolves close by, but the reality is that we will have to be much more careful with them around.

Ya...we have been hunting whitney.Never seen any dogs yet this year and hope I don't,at least not while walkin.I did glass a cat(couger) 2 days ago in some rocks in an area where I just walked.I spotted it after returning to the zuk.It's a bit nerve racking walking in the sticks with the thought in the back of your mind that there are critters that could harm you if your in the wrong place at the right time.Came into contact one year with a 5x6 within 5ft face to face on an overgrown trail while pushin trees....no fire arm or anything with me,he did the snort,shook his head,pawed the ground and I quickly moved off the trail and watched him walk right by,needless to say he was not happy and I was not going to tangle with a big buck.

Dont know why but I have a hard time hunting by myself,If Someone is with me then I feel alot safer.:)
 

thefirstzukman

Finding Utah
Supporting Member
For what its worth, almost every wolf caught or killed in Utah and processed through the dwr has been a hybrid. The dwr has yet to find a wolf in central Utah that shared DNA with the original Yellowstone pack. My Dad is retired and spends his every waking moment on two things, wolf delisting and working with the dwr on changing fishing regulations in Utah.. He represents Sportsman for fish and wildlife on the fishing front. He has very close ties with the dwr, they don't want the wolves here anymore then most people. When you look at evolution, before we inhabited this area there were wolves and there were elk and deer.. There were also large open meadows and plenty of area for them to live. We come in and push the wildlife up into the mountains, this was not their natural habitat.. Maybe we should just leave, that would make as much sense as introducing the Wolfe back. Evolution means change. If the Wolfe wanted to live they should have fought harder.
 

rholbrook

Well-Known Member
Location
Kaysville, Ut
The Pioneers ate wolf all the time. In my Great great grandfathers diary he mentioned it all the time. Said they would go out hunting and would have to settle on wolf because that's all they could find sometimes. He also commented that it wasn't anyone's favorite but at least was much needed protein One passage said that they had shot and killed six of them on one outing
 

DAA

Well-Known Member
Supporting Member
If they taste anything like coyote that is some NASTY eating.

Have also read accounts of the pioneers rendering wolves for axle grease. Again, if the fat on them is anything like the fat on a coyote this time of year, I can see where it could make some pretty effective lubricant. Might take a lot of them though...

Kinda changing the subject, but bobcat backstrap is downright tasty. Closest thing I can relate it to is a super tender pork chop.

- DAA
 
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