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This probably won't go over well, but....

JackKeslerCustoms

JackKeslerCustoms

Active Member
Location
Herriman
This is a great thread. It's hard to argue in this day and age that Christianity does more harm than good. Muslims, FLDS, The Hale Bop Comet cult, these are hard for rational, generally christian society to see as doing much good for the general population. The problem is that you can't argue with someone's beliefs. You can't scrutinize something that requires no factual basis to be percieved as the truth. You need to look no further than the Island of Haiti / The dominican republic to see the advantages to having a predominanlty christian society (The DR), to a society who's main religion is vodoo (Haiti). I think that to most people it does help them to think that they are living this life to attain a greater status in the next, and that they will be held accountable to a higher power for the things that they do.
I also think it is sad that we need a stucture that is based on nothing but stories that are completly unverifiable, but have been told, altered, and repaeted from generation to generation for hundreds of years to be good people.
 
Herzog

Herzog

somewhat damaged
Admin
Location
Wydaho
Lifelong Jeeper said:
1. I submit that the majority of crime committed (ignoring extremists), whether by an atheist or a member of a religion, is done with a self serving purpose in mind. ...
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Very well said. I concur.

Lifelong Jeeper said:
2. Atheism, IMO dare I say, is a religion. :eek::ugh: It is a base on which your beliefs are established. It guides you in a certain path or direction in life.
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Definition: Religion

I'm not here to be part of either side in this conversation, I just like facts. :)
 
Herzog

Herzog

somewhat damaged
Admin
Location
Wydaho
StrobeNGH said:
Forgiveness is usually not in their minds when the acts occur. It is an afterthought.


Please remember that I am speaking from experience, and not in hypothetical terms:

We always get together over lunch and talk shop (the poor people who happen to sit near us and overhear some of our stories . . .).

From our experience, we have found that the really violent ones do not have a belief in a supreme being.
Also, people who murder (pre-meditated) usually don't believe in a God.

Those who do believe in God will commit Ag Assaults, but they usually stop themselves short of murder.
Other homicides (non-pre-meditated) do not have any pattern to them. They just happen, and the beliefs of the people who commit them aren't usually a factor.

The murderers who believe in God usually develop that belief after the crime has occurred as they seek forgiveness/redemption.

Now, if you want to read about someone who is evil personified, look up Troy Kell.
This man scares me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy_Kell
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Not an arguing point, but you say that Godless people more likely to murder... history says they are more likely to be brilliant.

Abraham Lincoln, Albert Einstein, Aldous Huxley, Andrew Carnegie, Isaac Asimov, Ernest Hemingway, Charles Darwin, Benjamin Franklin, Carl Sagan, Bertrand Russell, Galileo Galilei, James Madison, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson (Deist), Thomas Edison, and the list goes on and on.

Just saying, many more variables than personal experience. :) There have been many brilliant people with all kinds of beliefs. Murders are just a different animal, IMO.
 
S

StrobeNGH

no user title
Location
WB
Beerman said:
. . .

On a different note, if you have religion in your life, and it makes you happy, then that is awesome, and I dont take that away from anyone. I dont look at any of my friends or family members differently because of their religious choices, and I wish the same were true in return (Oh well).

Finding anything that grants you pleasure in life or meaning without breaking the laws of man, or hurting others is certainly an accomplishment. I chose to be Atheist because I prefer reason and logic over faith and ignorance. That was my choice, and it makes me happy.

. . .

I dont want to slam anyone or take anything away from anyone, just do some sole searching and just make sure that the god you are worshiping is really the answer you are looking for. Life is too short to not question everything thrown at you.
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Here is what drives me nuts about the critics of religion.

They/you say that they don't want to slam personal beliefs, and that they/you respect the points of views of others, but there is always a passive-aggressive jab thrown in.

Yours was:
"I chose to be Atheist because I prefer reason and logic over faith and ignorance."

Why is this?
Why can't people respect the faith (religious or not) of others?



And as for the Religion and homicide thread:

The information about them finding religion afterwards comes from the horses mouth.

There are many things to do in prison . . . finding religion is one of many diversions, but in the overall quest to survive prison, religion is not the best choice.

That is why people join gangs. You would be surprised at how many non-violent people go to prison, only to develop hyper-violent tendencies while there.
Prison is the #1 breeding ground for white supremacists, and other gangs.

Many people have killed using their God as an excuse, but I've only heard of a few people who used their God to kill on an individual level.
Most murderers (as has already been said) have no real belief in a supreme being, other than themselves . . .

What I find interesting is that an argument can be made in every homicide case that the defendant was insane.
We have volumes of studies stating that no sane person would choose to kill another.
 
U

Utahcryogenics

Formerly "Beerman"
Location
Murray
Lifelong Jeeper said:
All interesting points of view. I respect your rights to not believe and thank you for respecting my rights to the contrary. I have three quick points...

I found happiness while I was alive. I prefer to hope for something more.
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Cool, I understand and respect what you are saying. Just as some people say "Unchristian things" let me go on the wire and say something a little "Un-atheist" of me. I hope I am wrong, and that there is all kinds of hot chicks, and Dana 60's, and rocks to climb, and Lasagna, and everything else that brings me happiness after this life. That would really be cool. :greg::rofl:
 
U

Utahcryogenics

Formerly "Beerman"
Location
Murray
StrobeNGH said:
Here is what drives me nuts about the critics of religion.

They/you say that they don't want to slam personal beliefs, and that they/you respect the points of views of others, but there is always a passive-aggressive jab thrown in.

Yours was:
"I chose to be Atheist because I prefer reason and logic over faith and ignorance."

Why is this?
Why can't people respect the faith (religious or not) of others?
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I do, that is just my view, not a personal attack. I would compare that to a Christian stating that people without ****** carry no morals, or something similar. I hear it all the time. It is just how I see people who choose religion over evidence. Faith by definition is "The ignorance of proof", so when I state "Faith and ignorance" the second word is mainly a play off the first if you know what I mean. So again, not a personal attack, just a more firm use of words.

One of the most interesting things about me, and what I have noticed from others perceptions is this: I make a friend, through work, wheeling, fishing, whatever. As time goes by the whole religion thing comes up, and finally the other party knows I am Atheist. I usually here something like; "That is odd, I would have never guessed, you seem too nice and caring, and have all the Christian qualities". :rofl:

I just remind them that people can be nice and caring and have good morals and solid integrity and not go to church as well. I still dont get where religious people have come up with the idea that Atheists are mean or brutal people. Hell, even Peter Gilmore is a nice and well educated guy, but he certainly is no Christian.

Let me make this my last post in this thread before it gets personal. I think you guys know my feelings on the subject, and I hope that all of you know that I am also the same guy who would give you a 760x joint for a trail repair, who would stop to push you out of a mud hole, etc. I am also that same guy who watches the neighborhood for creeps, and makes sure the kids are safe. I would say I am "A good neighbor". Too many people judge, or get judged because of their beliefs and not the content of their character.

Take care, and have a happy conference day. :p
 
timpanogos

timpanogos

Push to the Peak
Location
Heber
Beerman said:
...I just remind them that people can be nice and caring and have good morals and solid integrity ...
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I wonder if these qualities could/should be clasified as "spiritual" aspects of a person?

One very well may be spiritual, and yet have no association with a given religion.

Also, one may be very reigious, and yet have no concept of true spirituality.

Beerman, as a proclaimed athiest, do you consider yourself to be spiritual?
 
S

StrobeNGH

no user title
Location
WB
Beerman said:
I just remind them that people can be nice and caring and have good morals and solid integrity and not go to church as well. I still dont get where religious people have come up with the idea that Atheists are mean or brutal people. Hell, even Peter Gilmore is a nice and well educated guy, but he certainly is no Christian.
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YOU LIE!

Atheists are mean and brutal people because the bible says they are.
Duh.





Actually, I wonder if the notion that atheists are mean and brutal people comes from an internal analysis.

One of the DA's I work with does NOT trust anyone else. If you tell her your client did x, she sends out her investigators to verify that my client did, in fact, do x. She simply can't take my word for anything.
I have NEVER done anything to make her not trust me . . . but she requires verification for everything I tell her, and insists upon triple checking, and backing up, everything that I tell her.

It drove me nuts for a while, until I realized that we tend to expect traits from others which we demonstrate.
I.E. SHE is a deceitful and dishonest person, and expects the same behavior from the rest of us.


So, the belabored point is: are those who assume that atheists are mean and brutal projecting their own traits onto others? They know that they are mean and brutal people, and that the only thing keeping them from indulging their tendencies is their religion . . . therefore anyone without their religion, which calms the savage beast within, is left without their own Jiminy Cricket?


Thank you for the clarification. I tend to get along better with those who don't share my beliefs than those who do, so I think I know where you are coming from.


As for faith . . . my faith makes perfect sense to me, but I do not expect it to make sense to others.
That is, after all, why they call it faith.

Kind-of like rebuilding a motor. I think that the ability to resurrect a dead engine is a myth, but there are plenty here who know it to be a distinct possibility.



I think that the ultimate irony is that ***** had the solution.
He told us to love thy neighbor as thyself, He taught us that even those whom we have been taught to despise our entire lives can be good and honorable people (the Parable of the Good Samaritan), and He taught us that those whom we esteem as the most righteous among us can be the most evil (the Pharisees and Sadducees).

I.E. don't judge a book by its cover, and treat everyone as good, if not better, than yourself.


Edit: Beerman, where do you live? I have some friends that I'd like to send to your house to share a message with you.
 
JackKeslerCustoms

JackKeslerCustoms

Active Member
Location
Herriman
As for faith . . . my faith makes perfect sense to me, but I do not expect it to make sense to others.
That is, after all, why they call it faith.

:)


I think that the ultimate irony is that ***** had the solution.
He told us to love thy neighbor as thyself, He taught us that even those whom we have been taught to despise our entire lives can be good and honorable people (the Parable of the Good Samaritan), and He taught us that those whom we esteem as the most righteous among us can be the most evil (the Pharisees and Sadducees).

It is definately hard to argue that in this day and age that christianity does more harm than good. Reguardless of our individual beliefs.

I think if you could take the religious aspects away from the conversation and speak only only of morals and values, alot of us will find out that we are on the same page rather than sit and nitpick the details.
 
Brett

Brett

Meat-Hippy
Location
Salt Lake City Utah
Keslerjr said:
I think if you could take the religious aspects away from the conversation and speak only only of morals and values, alot of us will find out that we are on the same page rather than sit and nitpick the details.
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As should it be. You don't need to believe in a higher being (I don't) to have the same morals and values of your neighbor. It's called "right and wrong."
 
BlackDog

BlackDog

one small mod at a time
Location
Proudly Deported to ID
This is almost pointless, as it has been covered and brow beaten to death.. but if you look at the base of most of the religions, movements, they all center around karmic retribution, law of reciprocity, golden Rule....pick whichever phrase you like... bottom line, treat as you want to be treated... and respect your surroundings.
 
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