UROC Modified guys please read.....

[SuperRanger]

It has been posted twice by Tim on the UROC website that custom frames are now legal in the modified class. We all have a lot invested in this class and (at least in my case) don't want to see it get changed into a buggy class.

If you are impacted by this rule change please send Ranch or Mark an email. Thier addresses are:

Ranch@uroc.com

Mark@uroc.com

I have tried to point out to them that:

1) This is an illeagal rule change per rule 3.3 (Notification will be given thirty days prior to an event for vehicle specification changes). The post on the UROC forum states it will take effect immediately.

2) This largely defeats the purpose of the class.

3) They have not solicited input from those affected by the rule change. I (and others) have posted recommendations, sent e-mails, and had phone conversations and have been given no answers as to why our ideas are unacceptable.

4) The new rule is more vague than the last rule. It is full of loopholes and has no technical information. There is no minimum wall thickness (safety issue), definition of what is considered to be the frame, or overall min. - max. dimensions.

5) It is stated that there will be new restrictions to ensure the purity of the class. Why not wait until we have these ironed out before the release of a poorly written rule? Are these new restrictions going to make my rig illeagal? Nobody can start building until these restrictions are out.

6) The purpose of this rule change (to my knowledge) is to make 1 out of over 60 vehicles in this class legal. As it is, the rule worked. It was determined a rig was not within the rules. The problem is not the rule but the enforcement of the rule.

 

[Craig S]

This thread is for all present or past Legend, Modified Stock competitors, hard core wheelers, fans, Judges, Marshals or UROC rule makers to respond to. I will send a copy of this thread to UROC if any productive information is gathered that may help the Modified class rules.

The new rule change does in fact defeat the purpose of the class which used to be called the Legend Class from 2001 - 2003. This class was intended to be for the hard core trail guys that wanted to compete. I know this to be a fact because I wrote the original UROC rule book and originated the Legend class with input from as many competitors, Officials and wheelers that would talk to me.

I talked to Tim Rettig in Tennessee about the new frame rule and Modified Class. He told me that it is possible (almost guaranteed) that the rules will be changed again for next year and that any rigs built to the current rules may not be legal for next year!! That is all fine and dandy unless you are building a rig now (7-28-04) and need to know what rules to build to!!!!! Or if you have a rig that has been made obsolete by the "rules" or will be in the near future! The biggest problem I can see with this is WHEN WILL THE RULES CHANGE AGAIN????? If the current rules could stay the same for a few years it might be OK, and I say this some reservation as I think the class has been damaged by the current rules.

I have been unable to get through to Mike Baer, Ranch Pratt or Mark Patey in the last couple of days to clarify what Tim Rettig said about changes in the Modified Class rules per our phone conversation on 7-26-04.

I am looking for some input on this subject and have stopped building a new rig for this class until this and other issues can be resolved. Please respond with any thoughts or information on this subject that is available.

Thanks,
Craig Stumph
ROCKSTARS, the Worlds Largest Off-Road Team

 

[fattodog]

This thread is for all present or past Legend, Modified Stock competitors, hard core wheelers, fans, Judges, Marshals or UROC rule makers to respond to. I will send a copy of this thread to UROC if any productive information is gathered that may help the Modified class rules.

The new rule change does in fact defeat the purpose of the class which used to be called the Legend Class from 2001 - 2003. This class was intended to be for the hard core trail guys that wanted to compete. I know this to be a fact because I wrote the original UROC rule book and originated the Legend class with input from as many competitors, Officials and wheelers that would talk to me.

I talked to Tim Rettig in Tennessee about the new frame rule and Modified Class. He told me that it is possible (almost guaranteed) that the rules will be changed again for next year and that any rigs built to the current rules may not be legal for next year!! That is all fine and dandy unless you are building a rig now (7-28-04) and need to know what rules to build to!!!!! Or if you have a rig that has been made obsolete by the "rules" or will be in the near future! The biggest problem I can see with this is WHEN WILL THE RULES CHANGE AGAIN????? If the current rules could stay the same for a few years it might be OK, and I say this some reservation as I think the class has been damaged by the current rules.

I have been unable to get through to Mike Baer, Ranch Pratt or Mark Patey in the last couple of days to clarify what Tim Rettig said about changes in the Modified Class rules per our phone conversation on 7-26-04.

I am looking for some input on this subject and have stopped building a new rig for this class until this and other issues can be resolved. Please respond with any thoughts or information on this subject that is available.

Thanks,
Craig Stumph
ROCKSTARS, the Worlds Largest Off-Road Team

Sounds as though UROC is trying to create a unified monopoly of competitors. Ie...the "moon buggy" crawlers. So, after reading the prior post, it sounds as though the "One" who was deemed illegal was associated with the "Good ol Boy" group of individuals who decide who is legal and who is not. My guess is, with a little pocket grease from this "one" individual, the rules are now being modified to suit his needs effective immediately. Once again, UROC showing us as the non-competing wheelers that make up the follower group of fans, what they are really made of, and what they stand for. Obviously their standards are no higher than the hypocrite who stands against discrimination then after lights go down is the first to discriminate against those who follow the rules set forth by the UROC association.
Maybe a total boycott of the UROC is in order. It started as grass roots, let it die in its own grass roots grave it is creating for itself!

 

[RockMonkey]

I think the modified/legends class took a nose dive the minute they started allowing narrowed frames. The only way to fix it is to require all vehicles to revert to the old rule that required the frame to be completey stock between the axles. That rule worked fine and we didn't have any problems last year or the year before that. Now they are allowing you to make a frame from 2x4 square tube any shape you want it. Any buggy built under that rule will have a huge advantage over a rig built with a stock frame. The DOES destroy the original intent of the class. An average guy with a very nice trail rig will no longer be able to be competetive in this class. UROC told us they did not want anyone to have to build a new rig for next year. With this rule they are practically forcing everyone to do just that. I was up until 3ish last night measuring, designing and drawing mine. What we really need now is a set of rules that is enforceable, and stable (will not have any major changes in the next year or more). We need these rules SOON, because it looks like we need to start building soon.

 

[Craig S]

Even if UROC didn't change the Modified Class rulesfor at least two years, that would be better than MAJOR CHANGES EVERY YEAR, INCLUDING MID SEASON CHANGES!!!!! I agree that the old rule with stock frame rails between the axles was better for the majority of competitors, but now there are several rigs built to the new rules that include narrowed frames and major frame alterations with notching. It would be as unfair to go back to the old rules for the competitors that have built new rigs as it was for UROC to change the frame rule to allow narrowed anything goes frames.

At this point unless UROC is given a clear direction from the competitors, I am afraid it could get worse, much worse. Who do you know that has time or funds to build a new rig each year?

 

[fattodog]

I think the modified/legends class took a nose dive the minute they started allowing narrowed frames. The only way to fix it is to require all vehicles to revert to the old rule that required the frame to be completey stock between the axles. That rule worked fine and we didn't have any problems last year or the year before that. Now they are allowing you to make a frame from 2x4 square tube any shape you want it. Any buggy built under that rule will have a huge advantage over a rig built with a stock frame. The DOES destroy the original intent of the class. An average guy with a very nice trail rig will no longer be able to be competetive in this class. UROC told us they did not want anyone to have to build a new rig for next year. With this rule they are practically forcing everyone to do just that. I was up until 3ish last night measuring, designing and drawing mine. What we really need now is a set of rules that is enforceable, and stable (will not have any major changes in the next year or more). We need these rules SOON, because it looks like we need to start building soon.

BOYCOTT!!! get back to the real meaning of wheeling

 

[RockMonkey]

i'm not interested in boycotting. I just measured and drew out a plan for a new buggy. Should be much more competetive than my current one, and will cost very little to build. Now I just need the finalized '05 rules to make sure it is legal.

 

[Milner]

i'm not interested in boycotting. I just measured and drew out a plan for a new buggy. Should be much more competetive than my current one, and will cost very little to build. Now I just need the finalized '05 rules to make sure it is legal.

finalized rules

Yea right....

 

[BCGPER]

I have to agree. UROC had a goal of becomming the next NASCAR. Perhaps someone from UROC should attend a NASCAR event, and see what it's all about. Billy-Bob, sitting in the stands, is totally relating to driving his wive's Taurus around that track when he's watching Mark Martin going into turn four. This is where the legend class really used to shine. The fans could watch us trying to get an average looking trail rig to do the impossible. What fan can look at Tiny doing an obstacle, and equate that thing to anything that came out of Detroit?

I dont have any problem at all with this rule, but this either has to start a whole new class (there really needs to be like a pro-mod class), or the legend class, and the people who follow it are about to go the way of the dinosaur.

UROC needs to rethink they're goals. If they wanted to be the next NASCAR, I think they they've missed the mark. The moon buggies are cool to watch, but so is a good Indy car race. Everytime I watch one, I can picture myself in a Honda doing 250mph in a corner........

Come on UROC, get with it! We're all just a bunch of good ol boys, who like to wheel, and so are the fans! I'd much rather pay my money to watch Curtis play in the money pit then some stupid damn air show..... :suka:

I think the modified/legends class took a nose dive the minute they started allowing narrowed frames. The only way to fix it is to require all vehicles to revert to the old rule that required the frame to be completey stock between the axles. That rule worked fine and we didn't have any problems last year or the year before that. Now they are allowing you to make a frame from 2x4 square tube any shape you want it. Any buggy built under that rule will have a huge advantage over a rig built with a stock frame. The DOES destroy the original intent of the class. An average guy with a very nice trail rig will no longer be able to be competetive in this class. UROC told us they did not want anyone to have to build a new rig for next year. With this rule they are practically forcing everyone to do just that. I was up until 3ish last night measuring, designing and drawing mine. What we really need now is a set of rules that is enforceable, and stable (will not have any major changes in the next year or more). We need these rules SOON, because it looks like we need to start building soon.

 

[fattodog]

i'm not interested in boycotting. I just measured and drew out a plan for a new buggy. Should be much more competetive than my current one, and will cost very little to build. Now I just need the finalized '05 rules to make sure it is legal.

So you spent all night measuring and designing a new rig for what? what happened to the last one you stayed up all night measuring and designing? Is that one you spent so much time effort and money building not good enough? Not dogging you, but, UROC, IMO is trying to pressure out the individual who wants to compete on a level and, in a rig that quite possibly could drive home after the event. My question to you is this; are you building this new rig/buggy for your enjoyment or for the appeasement of some bureaucratic faction who is specifically in it for the money and will do whatever it takes to facilitate the rules to his/their liking, even if it means changing the rules in the middle of the game at any cost.
UROC needs to remember where it was they were created from, local wheelers like you and the rest of us on this board. Without the little guys supporting them, they are nothing. Until a new stone is turned by these UROC officials, we need to keep wheelin the local trails, keep them clean, and support our local venues sponsored by local clubs. PEACE OUT !!

 

[I Lean]

So you spent all night measuring and designing a new rig for what? what happened to the last one you stayed up all night measuring and designing? Is that one you spent so much time effort and money building not good enough? Not dogging you, but, UROC, IMO is trying to pressure out the individual who wants to compete on a level and, in a rig that quite possibly could drive home after the event. My question to you is this; are you building this new rig/buggy for your enjoyment or for the appeasement of some bureaucratic faction who is specifically in it for the money and will do whatever it takes to facilitate the rules to his/their liking, even if it means changing the rules in the middle of the game at any cost.
UROC needs to remember where it was they were created from, local wheelers like you and the rest of us on this board. Without the little guys supporting them, they are nothing. Until a new stone is turned by these UROC officials, we need to keep wheelin the local trails, keep them clean, and support our local venues sponsored by local clubs. PEACE OUT !!

He wants to build a new rig so he can keep up with me on the trails. Just kiddin' Braden!! I do want to see your plans though.

All these changes in the rules for Modified class make me glad I'm in SuperMod...although I probably won't place as high in any events as I might be able to if I competed in Modified somehow--at least my rules are somewhat consistent. (even though I still have to comply with the ridiculous ones too. Winch bag/snatch block/E-brake are just silly)

 

[ROCKRUNNER]

WOW I READ THIS AND AM JUST FLOORED THAT UROC CAN GO AGAINST THERE OWN RULES AND CHANGE THE ONLY ONE RULE THAT DEFINES THE MODIFIED CLASS. (MID SEASON) IF UROC CAN CHANGE ANYTHING THEY WANT AT ANYTIME THEN OF COURSE WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN IS THE PEOPLE WITH THE MONEY ARE GOING TO TALK. NOT WHAT ALL COMPETITORS WANT THEY KNEW THE RULES WHEN WE STARTED THIS YEAR AND IF THEY DID NOT FOLLOW THEM THEN THAT IS THERE FAULT. DO NOT PENALIZE EVERY OTHER COMPETITOR FOR SOME WHO TRIED TO CHEAT THE RULES AND IS NOW CAUGHT SO THEY LOBBY TO GET THE RULES CHANGED. CRAP,CRAP,CRAP,CRAP!

 

[BCGPER]

Braden, I'd never dog ya but at this point why bother??? You KNOW the rulles will change, and probably before you finish designing let alone actually build anything.... Wait till February or so, till they pull thier heads out... Then build itto thier lastest rules, then a month later change everything to meet the NEW rules. Isn't that the way this game goes now days???

So you spent all night measuring and designing a new rig for what? what happened to the last one you stayed up all night measuring and designing? Is that one you spent so much time effort and money building not good enough? Not dogging you, but, UROC, IMO is trying to pressure out the individual who wants to compete on a level and, in a rig that quite possibly could drive home after the event. My question to you is this; are you building this new rig/buggy for your enjoyment or for the appeasement of some bureaucratic faction who is specifically in it for the money and will do whatever it takes to facilitate the rules to his/their liking, even if it means changing the rules in the middle of the game at any cost.
UROC needs to remember where it was they were created from, local wheelers like you and the rest of us on this board. Without the little guys supporting them, they are nothing. Until a new stone is turned by these UROC officials, we need to keep wheelin the local trails, keep them clean, and support our local venues sponsored by local clubs. PEACE OUT !!

 

[BCGPER]

They're due out mid July, 2005...... :suka:

finalized rules

Yea right....

 

[SuperRanger]

Craig,

I will be interested to see if you can make some headway on this matter. How many people even know about the change? There is a lot more discussion on the UROC website but I have had little success in trying to maintain the rule.

I am sure you can understand both sides, you might be our best hope to try and resolve this.

Keep us posted.

Brad Lovell
Lovell Rock Racing #232

 

[RockMonkey]

So you spent all night measuring and designing a new rig for what? what happened to the last one you stayed up all night measuring and designing? Is that one you spent so much time effort and money building not good enough? Not dogging you, but, UROC, IMO is trying to pressure out the individual who wants to compete on a level and, in a rig that quite possibly could drive home after the event. My question to you is this; are you building this new rig/buggy for your enjoyment or for the appeasement of some bureaucratic faction who is specifically in it for the money and will do whatever it takes to facilitate the rules to his/their liking, even if it means changing the rules in the middle of the game at any cost.
UROC needs to remember where it was they were created from, local wheelers like you and the rest of us on this board. Without the little guys supporting them, they are nothing. Until a new stone is turned by these UROC officials, we need to keep wheelin the local trails, keep them clean, and support our local venues sponsored by local clubs. PEACE OUT !!

In short, no it's not good enough. It was built three years ago to the standards of three years ago. At that time it was built to perform on the hardest trails and the hardest competition obstacles, and it worked great. Times have changed in three years. Competition has evolved the technology of this sport to allow rigs to do obstacles that my rig can not. Those are the obstacles I want to do. Some people like scenic/easy trails. Some people like a bit of a challange, and some people like to do the most rediculous, huge, impossible obstacles there are. I happen to fall into the last group. I know not everyone does. I tried a bunch of times at that ridiculous climb at the end of Lower Proving Grounds. I got close, but not to the top. My rig will never get to the top of the last climb on Upper Proving Grounds (except on a winch), and it's too wide to go some places too. I want to be able to do all this stuff. I also want to be able to win a comp or two. I'm ranked fourth in the series right now, but that's with how outdated my rig is, there's no way I'll be able to maintain that (or progress higher) next year. Technology has progressed past my current rig, so I want to build a new one. It really has little to do with lining anyones pockets. You should take all this energy and put it toward a worthy cause, like land use...

 

[RockMonkey]

He wants to build a new rig so he can keep up with me on the trails. Just kiddin' Braden!! I do want to see your plans though.

Yeah, cuz you made it up that climb at the end of LPG. Oh, wait, you didn't even get as far as I did...

Actually, yeah, that might be part of it. You make some stuff that I struggle with look easy, and it pisses me off!

 

[RockMonkey]

Braden, I'd never dog ya but at this point why bother??? You KNOW the rulles will change, and probably before you finish designing let alone actually build anything.... Wait till February or so, till they pull thier heads out... Then build itto thier lastest rules, then a month later change everything to meet the NEW rules. Isn't that the way this game goes now days???

You'd never dog me? Yeah. Yep, I need the new rules before I start building, but assuming the custom frame rule is going to stay (which UROC seems pretty sure about) my design will change little. It's still going to be shorter than a stock TJ, and with more ground clearance than my YJ.