What is keeping you on the sidelines?

[Tacoma]

x eleventybillion and two

 

[Seth]

I can't tell you how many times I hear about "we're" going to fight such and such issue or "we're" going to protest on capital hill over such and such and then I never hear about it again.

It all comes down to manpower. Manpower allows us to organize a march on capital hill. (Which did happen by the way) Manpower also makes it possible to report back. The priority has been to get the task done. Maybe with more help we can also report back.

 

[Seth]

some people have just left me with a bad attitude toward the situation.

I know that I cannot work around people that have soured me. While I "feel your pain" as it were. I also know that it is a larger issue then you or me. As it was stated earlier in this thread it is an us issue.

I would encourage you to give time money or resources to any of the groups. Maybe you can find a home in one of them.

 

[Milner]

In an ideal world I agree. In the real world people communicate in groups, forums and clubs that are centered on one specific type of travel. So communication becomes a huge issue.

Look at it in these terms. Canyon Country 4x4 has a member that is ticketed by the BLM for traveling what is historically a RS277 road. Where does this individual turn for help with a lawsuit? He turns to his club which does fundraisers. The club turns to U4WDA, which would not have heard of this unless the club asked. U4 disperses funds for the fight and lets all of you know of the situation. U4 uses its contacts with USA-ALL and BRC to see if there is funding available. BRC and USA-ALL would have never heard that this is happening with out the communication train.

I see your point and do agree, to a degree. However, If say, BRC had done the kind of marketing the Sierra has, then it could be that the individual would have known them and could have had access to them to get help.
Why does BRC not have that level of marketing, recognition etc....Funding! As you know marketing is NOT cheap! Any greenie can easily find a web link or phone # to contact the sierra club rep for their area directly. The majority of people out using the land (wheelers, atv'ers etc) do not even know about the BRC, USA-All or others, let alone know how to contact them....

There are thousands of points and examples to support both models. Both have their merits and drawbacks. My point is that I feel we are short sighted in this war. We are fighting battles without a plan to win the war.

Seth, thanks for a great thread/discussion. So often these threads turn into a pissing match. I really enjoy open disscussion without someone getting mad or pissy. Wow, adult disscussion on RME, who'da thought'it

 

[scoutabout]

It is not praticle/possible to support all the organizations and all the individual tasks. For the most part we are working with BLM and National land managers.

To steal one from the wilder-nuts, "think global, act local."

Keeping that ATV/Snowmobile/Mtn Bike/Single track open is just as important to our cause as keeping Moab Rim or RS open, is. Any closure is just one more step down the path to closing it all. True we need to pick our battles. but SOMETIMES WE NEED TO FIGHT A BATTLE THAT DOES NOT BENEFIT US PERSONALLY!

Exactly why U4WDA is supporting USA-ALL in their fight to save Factory Butte.

As long as we all persue our personal agenda's we will not have the strength/power/money to make the impact on policy we need to. It is not about you or me, it is about US.

From the big picture side of things that's true. From a local perspective, a single person can accomplish a lot more in their own back yard.

As Seth mentioned, the motorized access community works bottom-up. The wilder-nuts started the same way. Once a critical mass of money and resources were reached, they were able to support a top-down organizaiton. Our community is smaller, therefore we need more commitment from individuals to be effective.

Ideally everyone would:

Support a local club specific to their favorite form of motorized recreation (i.e. RME).

Support the state association specific to their favorite form of motorized recreation (i.e. U4WDA).

Support the national association or representative group for their favorite form of motorized recreation (i.e. UFWDA).

Support the local legal action group fighting for motorized recreation (i.e. USA-ALL, COHVCO, etc).

Support the national legal action group fighting for motorized recreation (i.e. BRC).

Around $100/year can buy memberships in all of these groups.

 

[scoutabout]

My point is that I feel we are short sighted in this war. We are fighting battles without a plan to win the war.

I respectfully disagree. It's just that the plans of groups like BRC, UFWDA, and USA-ALL take money which is not currently available. UFWDA's new business plan is great (it was sent out in their e-news to all members). Now it just needs money to make it happen.

The nice thing is that the motorized access groups can do more with $1 than SUWA can do with $10. We've got a better value, and better legal standing in most situations. We just need more people to contribute (financially and otherwise).

 

[Seth]

Any greenie can easily find a web link or phone # to contact the sierra club rep for their area directly. The majority of people out using the land (wheelers, atv'ers etc) do not even know about the BRC, USA-All or others, let alone know how to contact them....

Yep. It all comes back to manpower. They can do it because they have people that are paid to do it. We have to look for good natured folks with a few hours to spare. U4 has tons of great ideas. Stuff that would make all aspects much better but we lack the man hours to do it. This is why I am constantly bugging people. I see what it can be!

My point is that I feel we are short sighted in this war. We are fighting battles without a plan to win the war.

That comes from a constant need to react to what the other side does. It keeps you on the defensive. I don't see that changing. We just have to make the best of it.

Seth, thanks for a great thread/discussion. So often these threads turn into a pissing match. I really enjoy open disscussion without someone getting mad or pissy. Wow, adult disscussion on RME, who'da thought'it

Now you have and jinxed it.

 

[Tacoma]

As a former lazy bastard, I have to say that it really does come down to manpower. We need more people.

3000 people on RME? and not even 1000 in U4WDA. Don't know how many in USA-ALL or BRC. 2 million people in UT. How many members of the Sierra Club, and how much do they spend each year?

I'm proud to be able to help with getting advertising out at a reduced cost, but nothing's free, as much as I'd like it to be. So U4 needs more people to help w/costs! JOIN NOW! and join every group you can.

I broke the law 5 times in less than a mile, in the woods here. I do not want that to happen to UT. It sucks. Looked at a house here, it's perfect! But no way I'm handing over my trucks and guns at the border. I do not want THAT to happen to UT either.

There are lots of problems with any group out there, but complaining HERE will not keep the dirt roads, trails, and canyons of UT open for our collective enjoyment. So do your part.

 

[Craig S]

I am curious why people are not more active in land use issues.

This is not a piss and moan thread. I am just trying to figure out how we can entice people to join us at the U4 meetings and support the cause.

Or at the bare minimum find out if people are intimidated or apathetical.

Think of this as a customer satisfaction survey. How can we get and retain quality volunteers?

The following are my opinions, so don't get mad if you disagree, it's OK to disagree.

The main problem I see after years of working with the BLM is the lack of consistency with the BLM themselves. Some BLM offices will help, others will fight you on all issues. It is almost impossible to get a permit for any kind of event from the BLM in my area (Delta). Rainer Huck is a little extreme, but he is right. These groups are out to close all open land presently used for wheeling. The reason is that they are basically lazy and underfunded. It is easier and cheaper to administer closed land than open land.

The BLM and Forest Service exist to keep their jobs. Part of keeping their jobs is to maintain order on as low of a budget as possible. If you never leave your office the cost of fuel and vehicle maint. goes down. All overtime is eliminated as most events are held on the weekend. In short, the bean counters (accountants) rule.

Let me know how I can help on any land issues. I am interested in opening new trails and areas for wheeling as well as keeping the existing ones open. I am opposed to any efforts that reduce access or limit use to new or existing areas. America is the land of the free, not the land of closure. Closure is what the BLM and Forest service want!

Craig Stumph

 

[Houndoc]

I will add an answer not on the poll.

Too many other obligations.

Would I love to have taken the lead on the poster-at-dealers idea talked about last fall? Yes.

But I am already President of the Utah Veterinary Medical Association, take over next month as president of our home owners association, run a cub scout pack, own a business and have a wife and three kids.

I am sure that is the case for many of us. It is not that we do not care or that we do not volunteer our time for worthy causes. There are just so many important causes that we can not give each and every one of them the attention we would like.

I will add that I am very, very grateful that while I am busy with other issues, there are a great number of people who put land use at the top of their list and give so much time to that cause.

Thanks to all!

 

[Seth]

The following are my opinions, so don't get mad if you disagree, it's OK to disagree. Craig Stumph

You are spot on Craig. Every person you deal with in life has their own motivation. It make total sense that the BLM and FS act the way they do when you look at it from a numbers point.

I know it is like trying to push a rope but we have to keep trying. The larger our enrolled numbers, the more clout we have. The more people we have that can email and call on issues the more they will pay attention.

The squeaky wheel get the grease, so the saying goes. We have to be just a loud and more pleasant to work with.

 

[Tacoma]

Totally understandable. But you can write a couple small checks and help give the frontline guys something to work with.

I will add an answer not on the poll.

Too many other obligations.

Would I love to have taken the lead on the poster-at-dealers idea talked about last fall? Yes.

But I am already President of the Utah Veterinary Medical Association, take over next month as president of our home owners association, run a cub scout pack, own a business and have a wife and three kids.

I am sure that is the case for many of us. It is not that we do not care or that we do not volunteer our time for worthy causes. There are just so many important causes that we can not give each and every one of them the attention we would like.

I will add that I am very, very grateful that while I am busy with other issues, there are a great number of people who put land use at the top of their list and give so much time to that cause.

Thanks to all!

 

[Seth]

I will add an answer not on the poll.

Too many other obligations.

Completely understandable. I could not donate any time to another cause right now either. I have One job and three companies that I am a part owner in. Somedays I want to cry myself to sleep with the stress.

If you can't take a lead roll, please make sure your time spent on the trail is not only fun but productive for the cause. Meaning, when you head out for a trail ride you can contact the land manager in charge and let them know how many rigs and what you are doing. 99% of the time it is a "clean up". Take rash bags and pick up any trash you see. I know we all do this anyway but when we formalize it we can add up the numbers at the end of the year and show how much effort we put in on the ground. It is more important the one would think.

We have a article in the next Compass Magazine that explains how to do just this. Keep your eyes open for it.

 

[Don B]

I agree with Craig totally. Some days it makes me want to scream trying to work with these people and accomplish anything.

Another motivation that I see with the BLM is that everything they do, they have to take into consideration if it is going to upset SUWA, who will then start a controversy and make them more work.

That's why it is so important that they have constant pressure from the public that uses these lands. We have to let them know that we won't tolerate having things closed down. The land managers will take the easiest route. Don't let the easiest way to do things be SUWA's way.

 

[Brett]

I am curious why people are not more active in land use issues.

This is not a piss and moan thread. I am just trying to figure out how we can entice people to join us at the U4 meetings and support the cause.

Or at the bare minimum find out if people are intimidated or apathetical.

Think of this as a customer satisfaction survey. How can we get and retain quality volunteers?

Well, easy answer on why I don't go to the meetings. I work evenings, so it's out for me. I'd love to go sometime, but till my schedule changes, no can do.

As for the reason I think that there aren't a lot of people involved, I think it comes down to the fact that U4WDA is not known very well at all. I'm pretty sure that if I just went around the street and asked people if they'd heard of it, they'd say no. The flip side is that if you asked the same question about SUWA or the Sierra Club, you'd probably get a lot of yes answers. I know it comes to down to money to promote the Association, and that's the hard part to get if you're name is not out there. I saw you posted that Board is looking for a PR person, but it seems it's more just to update people that are members. Wouldn't you want to have someone that can get out, talk to people, media, try to promote the image and the values that U4WDA is trying to get the public to see?

Why is it that so many positions that, to me, are important in this, are vacant? Did a bunch of people just leave or something? Those do need to be filled if you U4WDA is to be a voice.

I do have to agree with Marc on a lot of this. How often do you see the ATV, biker, 4x4 groups working together on issues? I honestly can't say that I have very often. The only time I even see them together on the trail is if they're all friends and they decided to get out together. That really does need to change if you want people to work together. Get all the groups together, and make the public see that so they know that we can all work together. Find the presidents of the other clubs and work together on a clean up project, trail marking, just anything. I don't know how often the Association has contacted the news agencies around here, but if it's not often, change that. Even if they tell you no, we don't want to cover that, they know you're there and they'll remember that.

All this does come back to people and money and I understand that. I know it costs money to make money, but if you want more people involved, you've gotta stick your head out there for the public to see. Write into the papers, send out emails to the local stations. Are there any big events coming up that U4 is planning? If so, call the radio stations and throw on a 30 second add!

So, I've donated to U4WDA, USA-ALL (even have the sticker ) and to BRC. Now, you tell me what you need from me to help.

:brett:

 

[scoutabout]

I saw you posted that Board is looking for a PR person, but it seems it's more just to update people that are members. Wouldn't you want to have someone that can get out, talk to people, media, try to promote the image and the values that U4WDA is trying to get the public to see?

One step at a time. We're trying to cover the bases first, and then expand.

Why is it that so many positions that, to me, are important in this, are vacant? Did a bunch of people just leave or something? Those do need to be filled if you U4WDA is to be a voice.

Most are positions that have never been filled, and some are positions being filled by someone doing 4+ different jobs for U4.

 

[Seth]

Just a quick note to say I don't wan this thread to turn into a "you should do this" session. We have tons of great ideas on the drawing board. But we are all volunteers. So any project that we peruse must have someone (a person, a good hearted, committed person) step up and own it. Followthrough is the key. There is no use in starting 100 different projects just to have them fall apart in 6 month.

What is thread is about is asking you, the avid off-roader here. What is keeping you from helping? In examining your life, does helping the land use cause fit? Can you give two to three hours a week?

"The more you lose yourself in something bigger than yourself, the more energy you will have."
-Norman Vincent Peale

I am happy to announce that we have filled one of the vacant position on the board. Steve Edmunds has volunteered to fill our UFWDA delegate position. Thanks Steve and welcome aboard.

Now on to Brett's questions

Wouldn't you want to have someone that can get out, talk to people, media, try to promote the image and the values that U4WDA is trying to get the public to see?

The sort answer is yes. But we need to crawl before we can walk. I would be happy to fill a PR position. I think it would be a ton of fun. But then who does the magazine? It comes back to a lot of people donating a little time. PR for U4 would involve maybe 2 hours a week. Not difficult, but for those of us who donate so much time that it takes away work hours. The hours that make us money and pay our bills another 2 hours becomes too much. It also becomes a burn-out issue. One can do a light load for extended periods If asked to do more each week the long term energy is sacrificed.

Why is it that so many positions that, to me, are important in this, are vacant? Did a bunch of people just leave or something? Those do need to be filled if you U4WDA is to be a voice.

Most are positions that other people take on in addition to their named position. Again, we need to spread the workload around to maintain happy energized volunteers.

How often do you see the ATV, biker, 4x4 groups working together on issues? I honestly can't say that I have very often.

It happens more then you know. Like I mentioned in a pervious post, our focus has been on getting the work done. Promoting what was done in the past has taken second seat.

Get all the groups together, and make the public see that so they know that we can all work together. Find the presidents of the other clubs and work together on a clean up project, trail marking, just anything.

That is exactly what we do. U4 coordinated the largest, state wide service project ever undertaken last year. On Sept 30 National Public Lands day brought together over 300 hands on volunteers. 3000 man hours volunteered at 20 or so sites across the state. Nearly every 4x4 club and then some were represented. It went a long way to showing that we are responsible users of public lands. Both FS and BLM offices were very excited to have our help. We tell the story in our magazine of this multifaceted effort.

I don't know how often the Association has contacted the news agencies around here, but if it's not often, change that.

We have contacted several news agencies several times. For NPLD last year we had several articles in newspapers and the crew from At Your Leisure was up filming. It is not that the work is not being done. It is that is not being done as effectively as it could be because we are spread thin.

So, I've donated to U4WDA, USA-ALL (even have the sticker ) and to BRC. Now, you tell me what you need from me to help.
:brett:

First of all thank you for supporting all of these important groups. Secondly in order for a good fit to be accomplished we have to figure out what you want to do and what level of involvement is sustainable for you. The last thing anyone wants is for volunteers to get burned out and for us to loose them.

If you are serious about help please feel free to send me a pm and we can figure something out.

 

[Tacoma]

Excellent points, Seth.

For my part I'm pretty excited. There are a lot of motivated people getting involved all over the place, so there is good reason to be hopeful.

 

[Bear T]

Thanks to Seth and Steve for their great arguments for the U4.

And Many thanks to everyone that has voiced their concerns.

The question is why don't you get involved, not what the U4 needs to do better. We know we have along way to go, but we have also come a long way in recent years.

I personally, at my paying job, work 50-70 hours a week. I am the President of a local offroad club that I easily put for an additional 5-15 hours a week. and to top it off, I am a Vp of the U4, to which I try to put forth 2-10 hours a week of service. Burn out happens easily. We don't have to many chiefs, it just seems that way because there are so few indians. When there is typically the same 5-10 U4 members working every event, it shows a severe lack of effort by other members.
We appreciate every person that is a member and donated to the U4 for their financial support, however, what good is all money if we don't have the manpower to set up programs to fight land use legal issues, or to create driver education programs, or to promote the U4, or any other issue that can help ALL of us in keeping our freedoms.
Our battle is just not to keep trails open, its to keep all of our freedoms. If they close our trails, then they will take our trucks and jeeps, if they take them they take away our right to bear arms, freedom of speech, and the right to be an individual.

I don't care if you ever give a $1, or donate an hour of service to the U4. BUT IF ALL YOUR GOING TO DO IS SIT ON YOUR COMPUTER AND COMPLAIN THAT SOMEONE ELSE, THAT HAS VOLUNTEERED THEIR FREE TIME, IS NOT DOING ENOUGH TO KEEP YOUR PUBLIC LANDS OPEN, SO THAT YOU CAN CONTINUE TO DO THE ACTIVITIES THAT YOU ENJOY, GET OFF YOUR ARSS AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Join an association, I don't care which one, and make your voice heard. Make a statement the way you think it should be done. But don't critisize others for trying to help you the best way the possible can.

Sorry if I offended anyone, but this is something I am heavily involved in. And greatly passionate about.

Also I was raised, that if you don't like something, or the way something is done, do something about it or do it yourself.

 

[richpblaze]

Why do you need permission????????????

I have been going to U4WDA meetings guys for almost 6 months now, it can be a little frustrating especially as it seems so hard to make any progress. It really wears you down trying and trying and trying to reach people and get things organized etc. I know that when there was a cleanup I was there, the sad thing is it takes months and months to get permission to do anything more then a cleanup- like a bypass closure, or even just trail maintanence. I know that there are some people on this board, that don't think much of U4wda, and even some of my own views differ from other members, but I went to the meetings and we are all on the same team, and I realize now after 6 months that it sucks being the one that does the fighting, organization, fundraising, public relations, education etc. It just plain wears you out, and when some people get defensive about attitudes and the way some people come across, its tough to keep your cool when you are constantley fighting a loosing battle.

To clean up??????? I do this EVERYTIME I'm out, I also have the kids pick up as well. You DON'T NEED RERMISSION to clean up. We could organize a cleanup any time we want.